[fredlinux]

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[Cichorei Kano]

fredlinux, on Jun 24 2008, 03:10 AM, said:

Thanks for pointing this out to the forum community.

And ... what did you think ? Did you like it ?

Yes, I can confirm that this is indeed Kôdôkan jûdô's gô-no-kata.

While other private recordings of gô-no-kata exist, those were never intended for commercial or general release. It seems that this recording was made with the intent to release it to the Internet community. I applaud the intent to do so and present this cursory reading to the jûdô community. Gô-no-kata dates from an era when formal kata of jûdô were far less rigidly structured than today, so it is performed more loosely. Also, since it dates from before 1890 without any formal revision afterwards, it reflects a rather primitive stage of Kôdôkan jûdô, far less sophisticated than we know it today from both randori and kata. Even taking into account these caveats, the version published now on YouTube, is not particularly well performed at all, and this in many aspects. However, I recognize its merit that it will offer an opportunity to many judoists to have a first encounter with this old kata. I must warn though that watching is one thing, but actually practising or learning it is something else. I do not recommend to consider this performance as a standard. Most striking are its lack in spirit, poor body position, as well as sloppy technique particularly from the uke.

[Jonesy]

Cichorei Kano, on Jun 23 2008, 07:56 PM, said:

While other private recordings of gô-no-kata exist, those were never intended for commercial or general release. It seems that this recording was made with the intent to release it to the Internet community. I applaud the intent to do so and present this cursory reading to the jûdô community. Gô-no-kata dates from an era when formal kata of jûdô were far less rigidly structured than today, so it is performed more loosely. Also, since it dates from before 1890 without any formal revision afterwards, it reflects a rather primitive stage of Kôdôkan jûdô, far less sophisticated than we know it today from both randori and kata. Even taking into account these caveats, the version published now on YouTube, is not particularly well performed at all, and this in many aspects. However, I recognize its merit that it will offer an opportunity to many judoists to have a first encounter with this old kata. I must warn though that watching is one thing, but actually practising or learning it is something else. I do not recommend to consider this performance as a standard. Most striking are its lack in spirit, poor body position, as well as sloppy technique particularly from the uke.

I endorse what CK writes. This at last is the genuine Go-no-Kata. Everyone can now see how it is totally different from the fake kata marketed by Parulski and Muilwijk.

I would agree to that the demonstration is quite poor in terms of its technical execution and nowhere near as polished a performance as that Ochiai-sensei gives.

Nevertheless the two judoka in question are to be congratulated for their contribution in making this kata more accessible to all.

[liormmm]

For some reason I cannot watch it embedded here in the thread. I did, however, copied the link from the source and watched. Looks like a nice kata to learn. How advanced in your judo life do you believe one needs to be in order to learn this kata?

For those of you who cannot watch it embedded: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=fLgwL9LqqUk

Lior

[Cichorei Kano]

liormmm, on Jun 24 2008, 05:12 AM, said:

For some reason I cannot watch it embedded here in the thread. I did, however, copied the link from the source and watched. Looks like a nice kata to learn. How advanced in your judo life do you believe one needs to be in order to learn this kata?

For those of you who cannot watch it embedded: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=fLgwL9LqqUk

Lior

One does not need to be advanced in jûdô at all for learning or practising this particular kata. In fact, it can represent the first kata to learn, even before nage-no-kata and certainly before jû-no-kata, which is also in concordance with the specific goals of gô-no-kata. However, developing proficiency in the kata, is something else, not that it requires a level remotely compared to that required to reach proficiency in the more esoteric kata such as Koshiki- or Itsutsu-no-kata. I think one should rather compare that to reaching proficiency in Sei-ryoky zen'yô kokumin taiiku, for example.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 23 June 2008 - 09:35 PM

[liormmm]

Cichorei Kano, on Jun 23 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

One does not need to be advanced in jûdô at all for learning or practising this particular kata. In fact, it can represent the first kata to learn, even before nage-no-kata and certainly before jû-no-kata, which is also in concordance with the specific goals of gô-no-kata. However, developing proficiency in the kata, is something else, not that it requires a level remotely compared to that required to reach proficiency in the more esoteric kata such as Koshiki- or Itsutsu-no-kata. I think one should rather compare that to reaching proficiency in Sei-ryoky zen'yô kokumin taiiku, for example.

I wasn't even thinking about Koshiki or Itsutsu no kata, maybe in 40 years, if ever.
Next would be to find someone who can teach it, and of course, time to learn it, along with all the different thousands of aspects I have to learn about Judo.
At least it's good to know some people are still practicing it.

[Inferus]

CK-sensei, Llyr-sensei, would you mind if I ask a questionplease?

It appears tori initiates the motions by force. Such as, shoving uke. Uke then reacts by pushing back, ie using force against force. Tori then capitalises on this response of force back? What is the full title of this kata? Doesn't it have Ju in it as well as Go?

This post has been edited by Inferus: 23 June 2008 - 10:09 PM

[Cichorei Kano]

Inferus, on Jun 24 2008, 07:07 AM, said:

CK-sensei, Llyr-sensei, would you mind if I ask a questionplease?

It appears tori initiates the motions by force. Such as, shoving uke. Uke then reacts by pushing back, ie using force against force. Tori then capitalises on this response of force back? What is the full title of this kata? Doesn't it have Ju in it as well as Go?

It is not tori who initiates by force. It is still uke who attacks, but the movements really are focusing on the what happens after the initial attack, when force is opposed by force. The result is than depicted, usually by another forceful opposition; finally it is shown that yielding (though still in a relatively primitive form) offers the best solution. The full title of the gô-no-kata is gô-no-kata. At its creation (before jû-no-kata even existed), gô-no-kata was termed gôjû-no-kata. Later the principles jû according to Kanô was in a more sophisticated way shown in a new 10-form kata, called jû-no-kata, hence why the other more primitive kata only retained the name gô-no-kata.

All kata in jûdô have 'jû' in it, as the principle is essential to the core of jûdô.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 23 June 2008 - 10:28 PM

[Inferus]

Cichorei Kano, on Jun 23 2008, 11:27 PM, said:

It is not tori who initiates by force. It is still uke who attacks, but the movements really are focusing on the what happens after the initial attack, when force is opposed by force. The result is than depicted, usually by another forceful opposition; finally it is shown that yielding (though still in a relatively primitive form) offers the best solution. The full title of the gô-no-kata is gô-no-kata. At its creation (before jû-no-kata even existed), gô-no-kata was termed gôjû-no-kata. Later the principles jû according to Kanô was in a more sophisticated way shown in a new 10-form kata, called jû-no-kata, hence why the other more primitive kata only retained the name gô-no-kata.

All kata in jûdô have 'jû' in it, as the principle is essential to the core of jûdô.

CK sensei, would you say the go-no-kata is actually inefficient Judo? I mean, the epitome of Judo to me is in the Ippon seoi nage of the Nage-no-kata. Tori dropping under that blow, can actually complete the technique without touching uke, as long as uke attacks with intent? Similar to what you find in Itsutsu and Koshiki? (I have no experience with these other than watching them, but this is the impression I get)

It also appears as though Tori is not using the force that uke provides, but rather, moving out of the way of it with good tai sabaki?

I thought it may have been goju no kata, but was not sure whether I was remembering things incorrectly. Thank you for clarifying that for me!

[Cichorei Kano]

Inferus, on Jun 24 2008, 07:55 AM, said:

CK sensei, would you say the go-no-kata is actually inefficient Judo? I mean, the epitome of Judo to me is in the Ippon seoi nage of the Nage-no-kata. Tori dropping under that blow, can actually complete the technique without touching uke, as long as uke attacks with intent? Similar to what you find in Itsutsu and Koshiki? (I have no experience with these other than watching them, but this is the impression I get)

It also appears as though Tori is not using the force that uke provides, but rather, moving out of the way of it with good tai sabaki?

I thought it may have been goju no kata, but was not sure whether I was remembering things incorrectly. Thank you for clarifying that for me!

If I would întend to say that gô-no-kata would reflect inefficient jûdô, then I would most likely write that gô-no-kata would reflect inefficient jûdô. Since I did not write that, I did not intend to say that. If one wants me to elaborate at length about the various intricacies of gô-no-kata, one will have to wait for my book. Gô-no-kata was simply created in a very early stage of jûdô. I am not sure if you would see the original 10-technique nage-no-kata as it was first created and performed, that you would find the epitome of jûdô as we and you know it today in there. Jûdô did not start in 1882, just created by a 22-year old boy as this superbly perfect discipline. It took Kanô more than 20 years to develop nage- and katame-no-kata into a more or less substantial exercise, and even then, it still was discussed in detail at the historic Butokukai meeting. Even that elaborate result are the kata as we see them in the 1930 recordings, thus in a form that may not impress many of our forum visitors.

[Taigyo]

Interesting. I noticed that like ju no kata, none of the throws are completed. Presumably you could practice this kata with no mats or special clothing, just like ju no kata. Was that part of the intent of go no kata also?
After hearing about this one so long it is pretty cool to see it. It did not seem all that unfamilar, I have done drills that were similar to a few of the engagements in the kata. Lots of ushiro goshi too.

[Mdrnsamurai]

Thanks for the video.

Train Hard, Stay Safe,
Good Luck