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#1 User is offline   Archimedes 

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 06:33 PM

What can anyone tell me about the periodical Revue Judo Kodokan, which might also be listed as Henri [or Henry] Plee's Revue Judo Kodokan? I've seen references to it in Judo literature, but I can't seem to find any libraries that have it in their collections. I'm particularly interested in the September 1952 issue which has an article in it by Kainan Shimomura that mentions Tanabe's matches with Kodokan representatives. Citations of the article that give its title, inclusive pagination, and volume/number would be particularly helpful as that would be required for a library to make an interlibrary loan search and request.
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#2 User is offline   Joseph Svinth 

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 02:03 AM

View PostArchimedes, on Apr 4 2008, 10:33 AM, said:

What can anyone tell me about the periodical Revue Judo Kodokan, which might also be listed as Henri [or Henry] Plee's Revue Judo Kodokan? I've seen references to it in Judo literature, but I can't seem to find any libraries that have it in their collections. I'm particularly interested in the September 1952 issue which has an article in it by Kainan Shimomura that mentions Tanabe's matches with Kodokan representatives. Citations of the article that give its title, inclusive pagination, and volume/number would be particularly helpful as that would be required for a library to make an interlibrary loan search and request.


The Revue Judo Kodokan was established in Paris in 1950. The publisher and editor was Henri Plee. A web site that discusses Plee is http://www.henryplee.com/bio.htm .

Copies of the text are probably available in the National Library of France, and perhaps in the Bowen Collection. Foreign interlibrary loan can be a pain, but the citation I'm showing is Revue Judo Kodokan, II (September 1952), page 125. Given that this note comes from my article on Yoshiaki Yamashita, which was first written during 1996-1997, I'm pretty sure that my source would have been either Robert W. Smith or Graham Noble; I don't have the article convenient, anyway, and it's not in the volume of the publication that I do have.
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#3 User is offline   NBK 

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 08:13 AM

View PostArchimedes, on Apr 5 2008, 03:33 AM, said:

.....I'm particularly interested in the September 1952 issue which has an article in it by Kainan Shimomura that mentions Tanabe's matches with Kodokan representatives. .........

By coincidence, I'm reading about Tanabe, including his match with Isogai Hajime right now, but it's all Japanese.

I'm translating other material now but if you have a specific question I may be able to help. Will eventually have a summary of this I'll provide to someone for different uses; he's looking at 不遷流柔術 Fusen ryu jujutsu, of which Tanabe was the soke in the early Meiji era during his first contacts with the Kodokan folks.

In the portion I glanced at today on the train, Tanabe is cited as saying the core Fusen throwing techniques are more suited for 実戦 (jissen = 'real combat') than Kodokan judo, but will get you disqualified in judo matches.

Some of it sounded like the shoulder crunching being described in another thread on young soldiers in hospital. :stun:

BTW I'm also sure there are other, more accessible articles on Tanabe, such as the Judo Dictionary and Maruyama Sanzo's 'Judo History', unfortunately also in Japanese.


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#4 User is offline   Archimedes 

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 12:20 AM

Here's the passage I'm trying to track down, followed by the link to Noble's article from which it is excerpted:

In the September 1952 edition of Henri Plée's Revue Judo Kodokan, Kainan Shimomura, 8-dan, wrote:

Encounters between professors of the state were the exception. However, public opinion got so worked up that in January 1891 an inter-group combat took place in which Tobari (then 3rd dan judo, he died an 8th dan) for the Kodokan opposed [Matauemon] Tanabe, expert of the Fusen-ryu school. One must not commit the error of considering the ancient jujutsu as being a priori inferior to modern judo.
Straightaway Tanabe sought the combat on the ground, but Tobari succeeded in remaining standing up. After a fierce fight Tanabe won by a very successful stranglehold on the ground. Tobari, bitterly disappointed by the defeat, began to feverishly study groundwork.

The year after, he challenged Tanabe again. This time it was a ground battle and once more Tanabe won. He was now famous and, in the name of the ancient schools, challenged the members of the Kodokan, and even Isogai (then 3rd dan, at the time of his death he was a 10th dan) was put in danger from his ground technique. The Kodokan then concluded that a really competent judoka must possess not only a good standing technique but good ground technique as well. This is the origin of the celebrated 'ne-waza of the Kansai region'. And in conclusion to all this one may very well say that Mataemon Tanabe, too, unconsciously contributed towards the perfecting of the judo of the Kodokan.


http://ejmas.com/jal..._Noble_1000.htm

Since the Revue was a French publication, I'm guessing that the excerpt was originally in French. Did Kainan Shimomura submit the passage in French, or did Plée translate from Japanese? Did Noble then translate the French into English?

The excerpt mentions "inter-group combat," but it appears that only a single representives of each group was involved, Tanabe vs Tobari on a couple of occasions and Tanabe vs Isogai on another.

I'd be very interested in any information on Tanabe and his matches with Tobari, Isogai, and any other matches he might have had with Kokokan representatives. Although Tanabe was the head of Fusen-ryu, were the groundfighting techniques he used against Kodokan opponents mainstream Fusen-ryu techniques or techniques he invented or borrowed from other schools? Is there any evidence that anyone else from Fusen-ryu had matches with Kodokan representatives?

Joe and NBK, thanks for the input...
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#5 User is offline   Joseph Svinth 

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 01:35 AM

In those days, the magazine was published in French and English, with one page in English and the other in French, both saying the same thing. Captions were both French and English. As far as I know, most translations into English were done by Plee, and he probably did the Japanese, too.
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#6 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 02:39 AM

View PostArchimedes, on Apr 6 2008, 09:20 AM, said:

Here's the passage I'm trying to track down, followed by the link to Noble's article from which it is excerpted:

In the September 1952 edition of Henri Plée's Revue Judo Kodokan, Kainan Shimomura, 8-dan, wrote:

Encounters between professors of the state were the exception. However, public opinion got so worked up that in January 1891 an inter-group combat took place in which Tobari (then 3rd dan judo, he died an 8th dan) for the Kodokan opposed [Matauemon] Tanabe, expert of the Fusen-ryu school. One must not commit the error of considering the ancient jujutsu as being a priori inferior to modern judo.
Straightaway Tanabe sought the combat on the ground, but Tobari succeeded in remaining standing up. After a fierce fight Tanabe won by a very successful stranglehold on the ground. Tobari, bitterly disappointed by the defeat, began to feverishly study groundwork.

The year after, he challenged Tanabe again. This time it was a ground battle and once more Tanabe won. He was now famous and, in the name of the ancient schools, challenged the members of the Kodokan, and even Isogai (then 3rd dan, at the time of his death he was a 10th dan) was put in danger from his ground technique. The Kodokan then concluded that a really competent judoka must possess not only a good standing technique but good ground technique as well. This is the origin of the celebrated 'ne-waza of the Kansai region'. And in conclusion to all this one may very well say that Mataemon Tanabe, too, unconsciously contributed towards the perfecting of the judo of the Kodokan.


http://ejmas.com/jal..._Noble_1000.htm

Since the Revue was a French publication, I'm guessing that the excerpt was originally in French. Did Kainan Shimomura submit the passage in French, or did Plée translate from Japanese? Did Noble then translate the French into English?

The excerpt mentions "inter-group combat," but it appears that only a single representives of each group was involved, Tanabe vs Tobari on a couple of occasions and Tanabe vs Isogai on another.

I'd be very interested in any information on Tanabe and his matches with Tobari, Isogai, and any other matches he might have had with Kokokan representatives. Although Tanabe was the head of Fusen-ryu, were the groundfighting techniques he used against Kodokan opponents mainstream Fusen-ryu techniques or techniques he invented or borrowed from other schools? Is there any evidence that anyone else from Fusen-ryu had matches with Kodokan representatives?

Joe and NBK, thanks for the input...


What would you do without us ? <_<

Joe is entirely right. The magazine was a bilingual English/French publication known as "Judo Kodokan Review" or "Revue Judo Kodokan". This is what it looked like:

Attached Image

Attached Image

I am not convinced that Plee did the actual English translations himself though. The magazine was loosely based on the Kodokan's own magazine, which since the 1930's had been called Judo.

The content of the European equivalent is interesting, one the condition that you have sufficient academic background. There are many, many mistakes in the magazine. Half the names of Japanese are misread. Reading Japanese names is already hard and requires expertise. So you may find all sorts of names in the magazine you have never heard of, which in fact, if properly read is some famous person. I have even seen the name of Mifune completely misread and misprinted in the magazine.

If you have sufficient background knowledge on judo to immediately recognize such mistakes, you are fine. The issue of the magazine issue which I attached above, for example, contains interesting info about the 'new' self-defense kata (Goshinjutsu) by Kenji-Tomiki, the Kodokan dan promotion requirements, an article about Tsuri-Komi-Goshi, about the 1959 All Japan Champion Inokuma, about the rules of newaza, and about the importance of zenpô kaiten ukemi.

Whilst I would gladly scan in for you the pages you seek from the September 1952 issue, I am afraid that I have no access to most of my library which is stuck in boxes, that aren't even in the same country. Sorry, next time perhaps.
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#7 User is offline   NBK 

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 03:55 PM

View PostArchimedes, on Apr 6 2008, 09:20 AM, said:

Here's the passage I'm trying to track down, followed by the link to Noble's article from which it is excerpted:

In the September 1952 edition of Henri Plée's Revue Judo Kodokan, Kainan Shimomura, 8-dan, wrote:

Encounters between professors of the state were the exception. However, public opinion got so worked up that in January 1891 an inter-group combat took place in which Tobari (then 3rd dan judo, he died an 8th dan) for the Kodokan opposed [Matauemon] Tanabe, expert of the Fusen-ryu school. One must not commit the error of considering the ancient jujutsu as being a priori inferior to modern judo.
Straightaway Tanabe sought the combat on the ground, but Tobari succeeded in remaining standing up. After a fierce fight Tanabe won by a very successful stranglehold on the ground. Tobari, bitterly disappointed by the defeat, began to feverishly study groundwork.

The year after, he challenged Tanabe again. This time it was a ground battle and once more Tanabe won. He was now famous and, in the name of the ancient schools, challenged the members of the Kodokan, and even Isogai (then 3rd dan, at the time of his death he was a 10th dan) was put in danger from his ground technique. The Kodokan then concluded that a really competent judoka must possess not only a good standing technique but good ground technique as well. This is the origin of the celebrated 'ne-waza of the Kansai region'. And in conclusion to all this one may very well say that Mataemon Tanabe, too, unconsciously contributed towards the perfecting of the judo of the Kodokan.


http://ejmas.com/jal..._Noble_1000.htm

Since the Revue was a French publication, I'm guessing that the excerpt was originally in French. Did Kainan Shimomura submit the passage in French, or did Plée translate from Japanese? Did Noble then translate the French into English?

The excerpt mentions "inter-group combat," but it appears that only a single representives of each group was involved, Tanabe vs Tobari on a couple of occasions and Tanabe vs Isogai on another.

I'd be very interested in any information on Tanabe and his matches with Tobari, Isogai, and any other matches he might have had with Kokokan representatives. Although Tanabe was the head of Fusen-ryu, were the groundfighting techniques he used against Kodokan opponents mainstream Fusen-ryu techniques or techniques he invented or borrowed from other schools? Is there any evidence that anyone else from Fusen-ryu had matches with Kodokan representatives?

Joe and NBK, thanks for the input...


Not sure where they would have gotten that specific info, but in general it makes sense. If I find it I'll post it. But can't help you with this mag.

I have the part that might be of interest to you, so I'll just post it. Warning - a quick translation only, not definitive, paraphrasing, and skip not-related or redundant bits.

I think that the answer is that Tanabe developed his own techniques; his words below describe those techniques.

The summary translation comes from 工藤雷介 秘録 : 日本柔道
 Kudo Raisuke's "Japanese Judo: Hidden Records", 1972, pp66-68, 108-111. It's repetitive because it comes from 2 different theme areas in the book.

Hmmm... the footnotes superscript doesn't come out, but you can figure it out. Fair warning - the book is really interesting, written by a sportswriter IIRC, but there are few sources quoted.

And if you think this is missing link to BJJ, forget I ever said anything. :P

Cheers,

**************
Tanabe Mataemon had fought Isogai Hajime twice, in Fukuoka and Kyoto, both times to a draw. But then the Kodokan got reinforcement in the form of Samura Kaichiro (ka-i-chi-ro), the eldest son of Samura (Seimon?) of Takeuchi Santo Ryu jujutsu . Having learned jujutsu from nine from his father, Samura’s newaza was ‘without parallel’ in the Kodokan. He joined the Kodokan in July 1898, was promoted to shodan in Oct 1898, and nidan in Oct 1899 on the occasion of his dispatch to the Butokukai in Kyoto as the assistant head of the Judo division, where Isogai was the first head of the Judo division. Despite being 9 years older, Isogai practiced newaza with Samura from the first day, seeking to learn how to counter the newaza techniques of the koryu jujutsu that was bound to challenge them.

In the fall of 1899, the city of Okayama planned a martial arts exhibition to be held in May 1900. Isogai was to represent the Butokukai, and Tanabe was to represent Fusen ryu. Quickly Tanabe went to the exhibition organizers with the idea of an ‘Isogai versus Tanabe’ match.

Isogai thought this ironic; Okayama, Hyogo Prefecture is the heart of Fusen ryu, Takeuchi ryu, and Kito ryu jujutsu. Loyal followers of koryu jujutsu abounded, and Isogai knew that the strong Tanabe would be a very tough competitor there. But Isogai spent several months focusing on newaza with Samura in preparation.

Tanabe was not a competitor to attempt to dominate by a single throw; rather, he was likened to a snake eating a toad – first, he would seize a single leg, then both, then finally envelope the entire body, letting fatigue wear down his opponent. Therefore, his chokes and reversals were skillful.

But in this match, presided over by Imai Kotaro of Takeuchi ryu, Isogai controlled his arms and legs, and stuck to Tanabe, not allowing him to execute reversals or chokes. The koryu jujutsu crowd, supporters of the local favorite Tanabe, called out “It’s time! Tie! Tie!” but the referee continued the match.

Tanabe began dragging himself, with Isogai, to go out of bounds. Isogai, knowing Tanabe’s strategy, pulled them both back in bounds with his whole body. “Time! Tie!” the referee called.

- The unnaturally strong Tanabe Mataemon

Tanabe was the 4th soke of Fusen ryu. The founder, “Motsugai” Yamato Sho, was famous for forcing the head of the Shinsengumi, Kondo Isamu, who was fully armed with a katana, to submit, although Motsugai was armed only with two begging bowls. Tanabe began training in Fusen ryu at the age of nine under his father, the third soke, receiving menkyo kaiden at the age of 22. In 1890 he moved to Tokyo, aged 21, and became a jujutsu instructor at the Tokyo Metropolitan Police. There for over ten years, beginning with Tobari Takizaburo, many Kodokan judoka experienced bitter defeats because of Tanabe’s newaza. Tobari, also a Tokyo Metropolitan Police jujutsu instructor, was taken down by Tanabe's newaza, then again in a shiai.

Tanabe said: (NOTE: paraphrased from 3 paragraphs, no citation)
Tobari had strong judo 。。。。 I had studied ‘鰻の抑え方’and ‘蛇の蛙をくわえる‘(‘eel osaekata’ and ‘the snake eats the frog’). The eel can quickly slip away, even when quickly pressed down by the crane. 。。。。。。。。。
The snake doesn’t eat the frog in a single gulp, but takes a single leg, then both, then the body, and slowly and inevitably swallows the entire frog. No matter what the frog does, it certainly cannot escape. In winning or losing in judo, eel osaekata and snake frog-eating, i.e., newaza are very important.
I respect Tobari and the others (like him). Even after they lost, they returned for the challenge. The other lot, when they lost, they didn’t have the guts to return for another shiai.

(My notes, not in the original text):
- Takeuchi Santo Ryu jujutsu was founded in current day Kumamoto, Kyushu. It was an amalgam of 2-3 branches of Takeuchi ryu jujutsu.
- See www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm
- This event is still held annually in the city of Okayama, and Takeuchi ryu figures prominently in it.
- Imai Kotaro, Isogai Hajime, and Tanabe Mataemon all participated in the first jujutsu seiteigata committee at the Butokukai in 1906; this meeting provided the core of what later became the Kodokan syllabus.
- The Shinsengumi was a quasi military unit formed by the Tokugawa Bakufu to maintain peace in the Osaka area in the latest days of their reign; its leaders were noted for their bloodthirstiness, and killed scores in sword battles.
- Tanabe died age 78 in 1946.

**

This post has been edited by NBK: 07 April 2008 - 04:38 AM



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#8 User is offline   Tsurumaki 

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 04:12 PM

View PostJoseph Svinth, on Apr 5 2008, 11:03 AM, said:

The Revue Judo Kodokan was established in Paris in 1950. The publisher and editor was Henri Plee. A web site that discusses Plee is http://www.henryplee.com/bio.htm .

Copies of the text are probably available in the National Library of France, and perhaps in the Bowen Collection. ...


The Bowen Collection only has an envelope containing extracts from Plee's Magazine re the EJU and IJF.
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#9 User is offline   JFTW 

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 03:48 AM

View PostArchimedes, on Apr 4 2008, 02:33 PM, said:

What can anyone tell me about the periodical Revue Judo Kodokan, which might also be listed as Henri [or Henry] Plee's Revue Judo Kodokan? I've seen references to it in Judo literature, but I can't seem to find any libraries that have it in their collections. I'm particularly interested in the September 1952 issue which has an article in it by Kainan Shimomura that mentions Tanabe's matches with Kodokan representatives. Citations of the article that give its title, inclusive pagination, and volume/number would be particularly helpful as that would be required for a library to make an interlibrary loan search and request.


Here are the cover page and the article...

Attached thumbnail(s)

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#10 User is offline   Archimedes 

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:41 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Apr 5 2008, 09:39 PM, said:

Whilst I would gladly scan in for you the pages you seek from the September 1952 issue, I am afraid that I have no access to most of my library which is stuck in boxes, that aren't even in the same country. Sorry, next time perhaps.


It's the thought that counts...Looks like judo for the west has got you covered, though...

View PostNBK, on Apr 6 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

**************Tanabe Mataemon had fought Isogai Hajime twice, in Fukuoka and Kyoto, both times to a draw. But then the Kodokan got reinforcement in the form of Samura Kaichiro (ka-i-chi-ro), the eldest son of Samura (Seimon?) of Takeuchi Santo Ryu jujutsu . Having learned jujutsu from nine from his father, Samura’s newaza was ‘without parallel’ in the Kodokan. He joined the Kodokan in July 1898, was promoted to shodan in Oct 1898, and nidan in Oct 1899 on the occasion of his dispatch to the Butokukai in Kyoto as the assistant head of the Judo division, where Isogai was the first head of the Judo division. Despite being 9 years older, Isogai practiced newaza with Samura from the first day, seeking to learn how to counter the newaza techniques of the koryu jujutsu that was bound to challenge them. In the fall of 1899, the city of Okayama planned a martial arts exhibition to be held in May 1900. Isogai was to represent the Butokukai, and Tanabe was to represent Fusen ryu. Quickly Tanabe went to the exhibition organizers with the idea of an ‘Isogai versus Tanabe’ match. Isogai thought this ironic; Okayama, Hyogo Prefecture is the heart of Fusen ryu, Takeuchi ryu, and Kito ryu jujutsu. Loyal followers of koryu jujutsu abounded, and Isogai knew that the strong Tanabe would be a very tough competitor there. But Isogai spent several months focusing on newaza with Samura in preparation. Tanabe was not a competitor to attempt to dominate by a single throw; rather, he was likened to a snake eating a toad – first, he would seize a single leg, then both, then finally envelope the entire body, letting fatigue wear down his opponent. Therefore, his chokes and reversals were skillful. But in this match, presided over by Imai Kotaro of Takeuchi ryu, Isogai controlled his arms and legs, and stuck to Tanabe, not allowing him to execute reversals or chokes. The koryu jujutsu crowd, supporter of the local favorite, called out “It’s time! Tie! Tie!” but the referee continued the match. Tanabe began dragging himself, with Isogai, to go out of bounds. Isogai, knowing Tanabe’s strategy, pulled them both back in bounds with his whole body. “Time! Tie! Tie!” the referee called. - The unnaturally strong Tanabe MataemonTanabe was the 4th soke of Fusen ryu. The founder, “Motsugai” Yamato Sho, was famous for forcing the head of the Shinsengumi, Kondo Isamu, who was fully armed with a katana, to submit, although Motsugai was armed only with two begging bowls. Tanabe began training in Fusen ryu at the age of nine under his father, the third soke, receiving menkyo kaiden at the age of 22. In 1890 he moved to Tokyo, aged 21, and became a jujutsu instructor at the Tokyo Metropolitan Police. There for over ten years, beginning with Tobari Takizaburo, many Kodokan judoka experienced bitter defeats because of Tanabe’s newaza. Tobari, also a Tokyo Metropolitan Police jujutsu instructor, was taken down by Tanabe's newaza, then again in a shiai. Tanabe said: (NOTE: paraphrased from 3 paragraphs, no citation)Tobari had strong judo 。。。。 I had studied ‘鰻の抑え方’and ‘蛇の蛙をくわえる‘(‘eel osaekata’ and ‘the snake eats the frog’). The eel can quickly slip away, even when quickly pressed down by the crane. 。。。。。。。。。 The snake doesn’t eat the frog in a single gulp, but takes a single leg, then both, then the body, and slowly and inevitably swallows the entire frog. No matter what the frog does, it certainly cannot escape. In winning or losing in judo, eel osaekata and snake frog-eating, i.e., newaza are very important. I respect Tobari and the others (like him). Even after they lost, they returned for the challenge. The other lot, when they lost, they didn’t have the guts to return for another shiai. Notes:- Takeuchi Santo Ryu jujutsu was founded in current day Kumamoto, Kyushu. www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm- This annual event is still held in the city of Okayama. - Imai Kotaro, Isogai Hajime, and Tanabe Mataemon all participated in the first jujutsu seitaigata committee at the Butokukai in 1906. - The Shinsengumi was a quasi military unit formed by the Tokugawa Bakufu to maintain peace in the Osaka area in the latest days of their reign; its leaders were noted for their bloodthirstiness, and killed scores in sword battles. - Tanabe died age 78 in 1946. **


What a gold mine! Keep it coming...

View PostNBK, on Apr 6 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

And if you think this is missing link to BJJ, forget I ever said anything.


I think of it as a kind of Piltdown Man missing link to BJJ...

This post has been edited by Archimedes: 07 April 2008 - 04:49 AM

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:41 AM

View PostArchimedes, on Apr 7 2008, 01:33 PM, said:

.....What a gold mine! Keep it coming...

There's more, but it's a pain to translate, usually pretty easy to read. I'm not sure it'll pan out, if you excuse the pun. :fez:

Where's this going?


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#12 User is offline   Archimedes 

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:46 AM

View Postjudo for the west, on Apr 6 2008, 10:48 PM, said:

Here are the cover page and the article...


Many thanks!

Can you confirm the page number? Also, is there some kind of table of contents that lists Kainan Shimomura as the author?
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#13 User is offline   NBK 

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:25 AM

View PostArchimedes, on Apr 7 2008, 01:41 PM, said:

。。。。。。。。。。。。I think of it as a kind of Piltdown Man missing link to BJJ...


How fortuitous a choice of words - you do know that Piltdown Man was without question a hoax, don't you? :skull:

I've read a Japanese researchers that notes that newaza in the koryu was more prevalent than the original Kodokan syllabus - an accident of the styles of jujutsu that Kano shihan studied.

I am not at all sure this dog will hunt. :ripsmiley:


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#14 User is offline   Archimedes 

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:01 AM

View PostNBK, on Apr 6 2008, 11:41 PM, said:

Where's this going?


I simply want to get to the bottom of what happened with Tanabe and the Kodokan.

I've come across a number of mentions of Fusen ryu / Kodokan challenge matches that make it sound as if the entire Fusen ryu showed up on the doorstep of the Kodokan and proceeded to kick their butts with superior Fusen ryu newaza. These mentions never cited any sources, however. The only seemingly reputable source I came across was the Revue Judo Kokokan note attributed to Kainan Shimomura which was cited in the Graham Noble article. Careful scrutiny of that brief account does not lend credence to the picture of some kind of Tokyo PD style shiai between Fusen ryu and the Kodokan; nor does it lend credence to the notion that the newaza techniques employed by Tanabe were stock and trade of the Fusen ryu.
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#15 User is offline   Archimedes 

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:18 AM

View PostNBK, on Apr 7 2008, 12:25 AM, said:

you do know that Piltdown Man was without question a hoax, don't you?


You do know that the reputed descent of BJJ from Fusen ryu is without question a hoax, don't you?
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