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Kime-no-Kata with live blade? Photograph of Kenshiro Abbe demonstration Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Jonesy 

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 04:46 PM

See attached.

The source is the BJC in-house journal, the Judoka, Issue 94, Jan-Feb 2008.

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#2 User is offline   Gaijin Judoka 

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 05:35 PM

Are those strings tied around the blade? Looks more like a shinai to me.
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#3 User is offline   Joseverson 

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 06:08 PM

View PostGaijin Judoka, on Mar 25 2008, 05:35 PM, said:

Are those strings tied around the blade? Looks more like a shinai to me.

Yup... Seems to be a Shinai.
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#4 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 07:21 PM

Yep a shinai
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#5 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 08:29 PM

Yes it is a shinai.
Please remember the era this photo was taken. Abe Sensei would travel the lengh and width of the UK to teach and often had to teach in very poor dojo under very poor conditions with what equipment the dojo had.

I had never seen this 'photo 'till today and am surprised he allowed the 'photo.

Moving on from the shinai have you seen his posture! Wonderful and all the pupils in the dojo in seiza. Was this taken in the UK? Not normal reigisaho in the UK?

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#6 User is offline   kendoguy 

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 02:42 AM

It's a shinai and someone forgot to take the packing strings off. Only the wider piece of leather up near the tip is supposed to remain during use.
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#7 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 02:52 AM

I was about 16 years old when I first came in contact with Kime-no-kata. I was immediately sold. I still have pics from the event taken on an old camera. I started practising it soon after. The performance used life blades, and I learnt it using life blades from the very start on. We never practised with anything, but life blades. We practised from old documents as no sensei anywhere I knew, mastered kime-no-kata. Much later we attended a visit somewhere where a famous sensei would teach kime-no-kata. We were the only people to have live blades and when one of his assistants saw me, I was severely scolded. I was baffled not knowing better. Now, I do. :big grin: It makes your reactions sharp though, but it is more dangerous than people may think.
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#8 User is offline   The Guv'nor 

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 10:51 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Mar 27 2008, 02:52 AM, said:

I was about 16 years old when I first came in contact with Kime-no-kata. I was immediately sold. I still have pics from the event taken on an old camera. I started practising it soon after. The performance used life blades, and I learnt it using life blades from the very start on. We never practised with anything, but life blades. We practised from old documents as no sensei anywhere I knew, mastered kime-no-kata. Much later we attended a visit somewhere where a famous sensei would teach kime-no-kata. We were the only people to have live blades and when one of his assistants saw me, I was severely scolded. I was baffled not knowing better. Now, I do. :big grin: It makes your reactions sharp though, but it is more dangerous than people may think.



I am not usually posting in the Kata threads due to my own paranoia of getting something so monumentally cocked up it will expose me as an absolute amatuer in comparison to many here, but I do have a very minute and limited experience with Kime No kata, and we too did use a live Blade for an inhouse test of the kata, the reason for me posting was after me enquiring with Scott of Denver Dojo, who was in fact learning the Kime No kata, for his 4th Dan examination, I eenquired as to whether he was in fact using Live blade himself, his response only showed up how I was not being completely aware of the whole scenario.

His reply was,

"Steve, They dont let the blind guy practice with a Live Blade"

The fact that I have met Scott and was totally aware of the fact that he Blind just displays my eagerness to ask the most stupid of questions.

Scott was however practicing this kata with his wife Heidi, Now, for me, I dont reccomend practising with the missus a kata where there is a blatant opportunity to kick your opponent in the knackers, alongside crack em over the head with a sword, even if it is accidental.

Heidi has to commended for her bravery too here. now she can wear her red and black belt with great pride :lol:
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#9 User is offline   Judoheidi 

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 03:05 PM

LOL Stephen!!

In fact we spent a good deal of time practicing without any blades whatsoever in hopes that we could master the moves without undue injuries to our partners. We have been using the wooden blades and so far nothing untoward has happen, but just wait... :lol:
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#10 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 06:45 PM

It is my strongest advice to readers that they do NOT practice Kime no kata with live blades untill a well qualified sensei gives his consent. No one looks good with stiches in his right inner thigh or missing fingers. Learn this kata, as all kata, with repsect, time and slowly. Only after many many years of working with bokkun 'may' your sensei ask you to use live blades.

I am so out of form with this kata that I wouldnt dream of practicing it today with a live blade I would return to using bokkun then after many more months, maybe years, of work would I change again to live blades. You need an uke with maturity in judo and tori needs to be at a level of concentration that is very difficult to achieve. You also need an open dojo free from children or others practicing randori etc.

To truly understand this kata one will eventualy need to use live baldes, This is if one inteneds to practice Kime no kata in a non sporting manner. When I was told to change over the level of concentration developed 20 fold and I realy woke up.
To perform Kime no kata with live baldes is unwise for most of us. I was taught this kata by top Japanese sensei, for many many years week in week out, and only when THEY said change did I do so. I love this kata and have great respect for it. My French sensei could knock an uke out in the idori moves! If performed as it can be it is stunning to see and wonderful to practice.

Do think about this.

Mike

Now EVERY silly wise ass will go practice this kata with live blades just to 'try' and prove me wrong. Dont.

This post has been edited by Hanon: 27 March 2008 - 06:48 PM

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#11 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:09 PM

How about using iaito as an intermediate step. A lot closer to live blade in actual shape, weight, etc. but a bit safer. You could still skewer somebody but at least they don't cut. Another factor to consider if you are going to use a live blade(or iaito for that matter) is that you are going to have to embark on a bit of special study to learn how to draw and sheath the sword. You should also learn a basic cut. Seems like nuki kake could get a bit exciting for all involved with a live blade.
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#12 User is offline   Judoheidi 

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:20 PM

There was a group at my college that practiced some filipeano martial art (for the life of me I can't remember what it was called) which liked to practice outside on the grass (and rocks and potholes) with real swords. I believe the club was disbanded by risk management after too many broken ankles and stitches. Everyone, not just the martial artists, thought they were a bunch of morons for practicing with live blades (and little or no control). Use the wooden blades. You'll live longer.
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#13 User is offline   Jonesy 

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 11:07 PM

View PostJudoheidi, on Mar 27 2008, 09:20 PM, said:

There was a group at my college that practiced some filipeano martial art (for the life of me I can't remember what it was called) which liked to practice outside on the grass (and rocks and potholes) with real swords. I believe the club was disbanded by risk management after too many broken ankles and stitches. Everyone, not just the martial artists, thought they were a bunch of morons for practicing with live blades (and little or no control). Use the wooden blades. You'll live longer.

I would guess Escrima/Eskrima - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskrima
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#14 User is offline   Judoheidi 

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 01:53 PM

It was some hybrid that someone up there had made up. I have never seen it anywhere else... I believe it started with a P...
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#15 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 04:09 PM

"painful mistake" perhaps?
To even think about using live blades you need to be doing the kata at a high level, and have a sensei who is familiar with the use of live blades. After hearing C.K.'s hair raising tale, I think he is lucky to still have all his bits (I am presuming he has all his bits anyway). I would like to try it with an iaito at some point, however I am actually a bit concerned for my iaito as well as my hide, seems like there is a risk of damage to the iaito or saya during nuki kake. Another point to consider, as uke can you stab or cut at uke with a live blade with the intent to cut? Pretty tough.......
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