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INOUYE Onikui of the Ten-shin-ryu Jujutsu school of Nagasaki Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Joseph Svinth 

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 02:01 AM

Does anybody know anything about Inouye-s? He is confirmed as the jujutsu instructor of Risher Thornberry in 1905, and before that, he was probably the instructor of J.J. O'Brien.

Also, is the school still extant, and that sort of thing?
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#2 User is offline   redcarded 

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 09:04 AM

Are you sure about that name? It's not 'Inoue'?

Only stuff you already probably know, pretty general information. Looks interesting mix of kempo, karate and jujutsu:
http://www.green.dti...hinryutoha.html
http://www5.ocn.ne.j...i/newpage3.html
http://www.misogi.org/tenshin.htm
Looks like there are still people practicing it in Tokyo, Kita-ku, Takinogawa:
http://www.jujutsu.c...-enbu2004-5.htm
Although it looks like after WW2 there was a change in the style.

There is also a Tenshin Aikido, although I haven't check if they are linked, those kanji are quite popular.
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#3 User is offline   Tsurumaki 

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 09:44 AM

View Postredcarded, on Mar 19 2008, 06:04 PM, said:

Are you sure about that name? It's not 'Inoue'?

Only stuff you already probably know, pretty general information. Looks interesting mix of kempo, karate and jujutsu:
http://www.green.dti...hinryutoha.html
http://www5.ocn.ne.j...i/newpage3.html
http://www.misogi.org/tenshin.htm
Looks like there are still people practicing it in Tokyo, Kita-ku, Takinogawa:
http://www.jujutsu.c...-enbu2004-5.htm
Although it looks like after WW2 there was a change in the style.
There is also a Tenshin Aikido, although I haven't check if they are linked, those kanji are quite popular.


You can think of "Inouye" as just as old way of Romanizing "Inoue".

Digression: the word "Shinto" 神道 used in the above references will often be mis-read by young (under 20) Japanese. If you ask a class (as I and others have) to write the kanji for "kami" ("God" 神) and then to write the kanji for "michi" ("road" or "path" etc. 道), and then ask how they would pronounce the two kanji as one word, the great majority say "shindo". Telling them "Shinto" produces much puzzlement and head-scratching. "But", the foreigner says, "the marriage ceremony in Japan is a Shinto ceremony!" More smiles about the foreigner's quaint babblings. The marriage ceremony is a "Shinzen" (literally "before God" 神前) ceremony. "Shinto" is one of those Japanese words that is probably more well known among foreigners than among (young) Japanese. Another is "netsuke". (There are also English words that are better known among Japanese than among native speakers, such as "atopy".)

This post has been edited by Tsurumaki: 19 March 2008 - 09:46 AM

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#4 User is offline   redcarded 

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 11:11 AM

aaah.. the keitai generation
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#5 User is offline   Tsurumaki 

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 11:50 AM

View Postredcarded, on Mar 19 2008, 08:11 PM, said:

aaah.. the keitai generation


Actually no -- I first asked the Shinto question in the 1960s and last asked it in the 1990s, with the same result; the students were about 19 or 20. Maybe I should ask again to see if there's been any change.

This post has been edited by Tsurumaki: 19 March 2008 - 11:53 AM

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#6 User is offline   johan smits 

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 02:37 PM

I think I recognize Ueno sensei from Tenshin koryu kempo (later on Shinto Tenshin-ryu) on one or two of the sites. I do not think this art is related to Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. Although I do have read that Ueno sensei learned Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.

Happy landings,

Johan Smits
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#7 User is offline   redcarded 

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Posted 19 March 2008 - 10:51 PM

I'm at work at the moment and the computers here don't support Japanese characters, so I'm just going from memory. Tenshin-ryu was a family art of the Ueno family. It was most famous for its stick fighting. I think it was Ueno Takashi(Not sure about that name), who after the war combined Tenshin-ryu with Chinese kempo and the principles of karate, and added the Shinto at the front to make Shinto Tenshin-ryu Kempo. So, if you're looking for something approximating turn of the century Tenshin-ryu it might be significantly different.
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#8 User is offline   Joseph Svinth 

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 01:55 AM

The spelling is from "Jiu-Jitsu As Taught by Kishoku Inouye", by Risher W. Thornberry: Box of Curios Printing & Publishing Co, Yokohama: 1905, and from a notarized translation of Thornberry's menkyo kaiden, also dated 1905.

Transliteration methods change over time. Also, indididuals sometimes pick their own spellings.
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#9 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 04:39 PM

View PostJoseph Svinth, on Mar 20 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

The spelling is from "Jiu-Jitsu As Taught by Kishoku Inouye", by Risher W. Thornberry: Box of Curios Printing & Publishing Co, Yokohama: 1905, and from a notarized translation of Thornberry's menkyo kaiden, also dated 1905.

Transliteration methods change over time. Also, indididuals sometimes pick their own spellings.


Japanese have learnt how to write in Kanji and kana. Unless, they are linguists, they typically have no expertise whatsoever in transliteration, so just like they often write ordinary words wrong, they may misspell their own name, or use improper tranliteration 'Inouye' is improper Romanization of 'Inoue', just like Uyenishi (Sadakazu) is improper romanization of 'Uenishi', and Satoh is improper romanization of Satō, and Ohtani is improper Romanization of ‘Ōtani.

Although indeed there exist various types of romanization, some of these systems are considered botched and rejected by most expert linguists.

The system in your reference is not Tenjin Shin’yō-ryū. There is no Tenjin Shin’yō-ryū in Nagasaki. Tenjin Shin’yō-ryū in Japan is limited to Tōkyō. I personally was trained in Ōsaka more than 20 years ago, but after the illness and subsequent passing of its shihan, that dōjō became extinct.
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#10 User is offline   HALFORD JONES 

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 09:26 PM

Many excellent points have been made here. I suggest that you all read, if you haven't Kurt Singer" MIRROR,SWORD AND JEWEL(I think that's the title) and it will help in some of this. As he puts it, you cannot always understand what is spoken in Japanese until you see the kanji and,of course, Romanization or whatever, cannot approximate the exact sounds. I think I pointed this out in another topic on linquistics,etc. For instance, dachi and tachi, kata and gata, ki,chi, and ghi,etc. More can be said on all this.
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#11 User is offline   Joseph Svinth 

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 01:54 AM

View PostHALFORD JONES, on Mar 21 2008, 01:26 PM, said:

Many excellent points have been made here. I suggest that you all read, if you haven't Kurt Singer" MIRROR,SWORD AND JEWEL(I think that's the title) and it will help in some of this. As he puts it, you cannot always understand what is spoken in Japanese until you see the kanji and,of course, Romanization or whatever, cannot approximate the exact sounds. I think I pointed this out in another topic on linquistics,etc. For instance, dachi and tachi, kata and gata, ki,chi, and ghi,etc. More can be said on all this.


I read Singer's book maybe 20 years ago. Good enough book, but it is utterly irrelevant to this discussion, because the references are not to spoken Japanese, but to the title of a published book and to transliteration methods used by the Japanese government in 1905.

Be that as it may, I was told offline that a better modern transliteration for the name of Thornberry's school is Jigo Tenshin-ryu 自剛天真流 , and that there may be living practitioners in Fukuoka prefecture. See, for example, Steve Delaney's comment at http://www.e-budo.co...hp/t-29924.html .

So, to bring the thread back on track, does anyone here know anything about this system, its teachers, or its methods, beyond what is shown in Thornberry's books and his menkyo scrolls?
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#12 User is offline   Saitama Steve 

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 06:23 PM

View PostJoseph Svinth, on Mar 22 2008, 01:54 AM, said:

I read Singer's book maybe 20 years ago. Good enough book, but it is utterly irrelevant to this discussion, because the references are not to spoken Japanese, but to the title of a published book and to transliteration methods used by the Japanese government in 1905.

Be that as it may, I was told offline that a better modern transliteration for the name of Thornberry's school is Jigo Tenshin-ryu 自剛天真流 , and that there may be living practitioners in Fukuoka prefecture. See, for example, Steve Delaney's comment at http://www.e-budo.co...hp/t-29924.html .

So, to bring the thread back on track, does anyone here know anything about this system, its teachers, or its methods, beyond what is shown in Thornberry's books and his menkyo scrolls?


Joe,

Ise Jitoku Tenshin-ryu (Jigo Tenshin-ryu) was one of the otome ryu for the Kuroda-han. It's possible to surmise that a branch of the ryuha might have set up a shibu dojo in Nagasaki, but with historical records being what they are in that particular area especially after the bomb, pickings are going to be slim.

Why I say it might be possible is the fact that a Sosuishi-ryu teacher did set up a shibu dojo in the Tokyo area after the Meiji restoration and the line is still extant with two dojo out there.

Best to check with Mifune sensei, the soke of Ise Jitoku Tenshin-ryu in Fukuoka. He might be able to shed some light on things if he is the scholarly type.

Best,

Steve D

This post has been edited by Saitama Steve: 22 March 2008 - 06:25 PM

Regards,

Steve Delaney

The Psychotic Leprechaun :D
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#13 User is offline   judobookman 

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 11:33 PM

View PostJoseph Svinth, on Mar 20 2008, 01:55 AM, said:

The spelling is from "Jiu-Jitsu As Taught by Kishoku Inouye", by Risher W. Thornberry: Box of Curios Printing & Publishing Co, Yokohama: 1905, and from a notarized translation of Thornberry's menkyo kaiden, also dated 1905.

Transliteration methods change over time. Also, indididuals sometimes pick their own spellings.



"Jiu-Jitsu As Taught by Kishoku Inouye", by Risher W. Thornberry: Box of Curios Printing & Publishing Co, Yokohama: 1905 - Joe, How on earth did you find this???? I'm not seeing it listed in any of the bibliographies that I have.

Steve
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#14 User is offline   Joseph Svinth 

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 04:26 AM

View Postjudobookman, on Mar 23 2008, 03:33 PM, said:

"Jiu-Jitsu As Taught by Kishoku Inouye", by Risher W. Thornberry: Box of Curios Printing & Publishing Co, Yokohama: 1905 - Joe, How on earth did you find this???? I'm not seeing it listed in any of the bibliographies that I have.

Steve


Offline, I was told that Dickie Bowen mentioned this book in his notes.
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#15 User is offline   HALFORD JONES 

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 03:31 PM

View PostJoseph Svinth, on Mar 22 2008, 01:54 AM, said:

I read Singer's book maybe 20 years ago. Good enough book, but it is utterly irrelevant to this discussion, because the references are not to spoken Japanese, but to the title of a published book and to transliteration methods used by the Japanese government in 1905.

Be that as it may, I was told offline that a better modern transliteration for the name of Thornberry's school is Jigo Tenshin-ryu 自剛天真流 , and that there may be living practitioners in Fukuoka prefecture. See, for example, Steve Delaney's comment at http://www.e-budo.co...hp/t-29924.html .

So, to bring the thread back on track, does anyone here know anything about this system, its teachers, or its methods, beyond what is shown in Thornberry's books and his menkyo scrolls?

With all due respect, it might pay you to re-read Singer's book as he actually spent time there bfore the war and went to Australia(a fact of interest perhaps to those who are concerned about Mr. Robinson in another topic in the forum. Singer also may have met Herrigal who studied Zen Archery and wrote one or two books. Herrigal, of course, had Nazi sympathies probably, while Singer was Jewish and that is why he was stranded in Japan and ousted eventually. In reading a book I have in the 1800's,etc. that I mentioned in another topic forum article, the things in there show the problems that most Westerners have in living in such countries,etc. not that the problems are to be discussed in their entirely but Singer's observations on things still seem valid in most part to me, as limited as I am in so many respects. I might add here, while I have time, that we all know how kempo and kenpo spellings confuse people, well you can spell Shorin as Shorim but when you look at the characters then you get a better picture of things, as Singer points out. Thanks for your time. Halford
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