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Change in French Kohaku Belts Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 12:36 AM

This is another thread which Hanon-sensei and PTNippon-sensei are just going to love. <_<

The French, creative as they are in coming up with innovative haute couture from their famous fashion houses, have decided that kohaku belts need some crafty innovations. In future:

- The red-/white panels of a 6th dan kohaku belt will be 20 cm long and carry a roman number VI to indicate the rank + year of promotion
- The red-/white panels of a 7th dan kohaku belt will be 15 cm long and carry a roman number VII to indicate the rank + year of promotion
- The red-/white panels of a 8th dan kohaku belt will be 10 cm long and carry a roman number VIII to indicate the rank + year of promotion

Thus red-/white panels get progressively shorter until none are left and you have deserved a red belt 9th dan). No, this is not a joke. What a circus ! :rolleyes:

Attached Image

This all serves the purpose of showing seniority. The French are very keen on hierarchy and different privileges with hierarchy. While it is almost impossible to prove, I believe that their pre-French Revolution obsession with hierarchy and their extreme emphasis on it is most likely responsible for the worldwide of obsession with dan-ranks we know to day. This did not exist under Kano, not simply Kawaishi's implementation of colors, but the emphasis of hierarchy screwed up the entire pedagogy behind it. I had a conversation a couple of years back with the vice-president of KLM, a large European airline, which merged with Air France. We discusses the cultural differences and how these had to be taken into account when preparing the successful merger. It was very interesting how the Dutch in doing business were so much more like the Americans: to the point, getting things over, people in a group express their opinion, and may very well be dressed in jeans. With Air France though, negotiations were inefficient, the French lost time with all sorts of extra-curricular stuff that simply had to do with living up to a status of being rich and important, and during conversations with the Board only the person on top would speak unless he instructed someone else to ... often simply addressing him by the last name; indeed a 'him' since virtually no women were included. One may feel that the Japanese society is a hierarchical society too. Sure, few societies have such levels of honorifics in their language and customs, but hierarchy in Japan is far less 'consciously' imposed (more embedded in culture) more 'received' than bluntly enforced. Such generalizations often attract a lot of criticism, but really ... the French have judo that is good enough, so that they do not need even more hierarchical items in their belt system to prove to us or the world how good they really are. In fact, people like Courtine or Rouge do not need to wear any belt to convince us how good they are. We know, we've seen them fight, they are part of history, our judo history.

By the way, Awazu Shōzō-sensei has refused being promoted to 10th dan by the FFJDA now and at any point in future, but was courteous enough not to do bluntly so in public. He has made it clear to the FFJDA he will only accept a 10th dan from the Kodokan. I cannot disagree with the man and the fact that there is still light in darkness makes my respect for him only grow even more. I just hope that he stays with us for another 5-7 years for that to happen. -_-

I shall personally file a motion with the JudoForum to amend Hanon-sensei's black/red-paneled belt with roman number 'M'. <_<

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 23 February 2008 - 09:24 AM

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#2 User is offline   CBJudo 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 12:51 AM

How very french! <_<

Is there actually any standard as to the length of the panels in a kohaku obi. Most I have seen seem to be of a relatively consistent size, however in some old film footage and photos of sensei such as Kenshiro Abe, Haku Michigami etc there seems to be much more irregularity, in one photo of Abe the panels seemed much shorter than seems to be common with most kohaku belts these days.
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#3 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 12:55 AM

View PostCBJudo, on Feb 23 2008, 09:51 AM, said:

How very french! <_<

Is there actually any standard as to the length of the panels in a kohaku obi. Most I have seen seem to be of a relatively consistent size, however in some old film footage and photos of sensei such as Kenshiro Abe, Haku Michigami etc there seems to be much more irregularity, in one photo of Abe the panels seemed much shorter than seems to be common with most kohaku belts these days.


No, such standard does not exist, nor has it ever existed, except for now in France ... :rolleyes:
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#4 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 12:58 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Feb 23 2008, 12:36 AM, said:

This is another which Hanon-sensei and PTNippon-sensei are just going to love. <_<

The French, creative as they are in coming up with innovative haute couture from their famous fashion houses, have decided that kohaku belts need some crafty innovations. In future:

- The red-/white pannels of a 6th dan kohaku belt will be 20 cm long and carry a roman number VI to indicate the rank + year of promotion
- The red-/white pannels of a 7th dan kohaku belt will be 15 cm long and carry a roman number VII to indicate the rank + year of promotion
- The red-/white pannels of a 6th dan kohaku belt will be 10 cm long and carry a roman number VIII to indicate the rank + year of promotion

Thus red-/white pannels get progressively shorter until none are left and you have deserved a red belt 9th dan). No, this is not a joke. What a circus ! :rolleyes:

This all serves the purpose of showing seniority. The French are very keen on hierarchy and different privileges with hierarchy. While it is almost impossible to prove, I believe that their pre-French Revolution obsession with hierarchy and their extreme emphasis on it is most likely responsible for the worldwide of obsession with dan-ranks we know to day. This did not exist under Kano, not simply Kawaishi's implementation of colors, but the emphasis of hierarchy screwed up the entire pedagogy behind it. I had a conversation a couple of years back with the vice-president of KLM, a large European airline, which merged with Air France. We discusses the cultural differences and how these had to be taken into account when preparing the successful merger. It was very interesting how the Dutch in doing business were so much more like the Americans: to the point, getting things over, people in a group express their opinion, and may very well be dressed in jeans. With Air France though, negotiations were inefficient, the French lost time with all sorts of extra-curricular stuff that simply had to do with living up to a status of being rich and important, and during conversations with the Board only the person on top would speak unless he instructed someone else to ... often simply addressing him by the last name; indeed a 'him' since virtually no women were included. One may feel that the Japanese society is a hierarchical society too. Sure, few societies have such levels of honorifics in their language and customs, but hierarchy in Japan is far less 'consciously' imposed (more embedded in culture) more 'received' than bluntly enforced. Such generalizations often attract a lot of criticism, but really ... the French have judo that is good enough, so that they do not need even more hierarchical items in their belt system to prove to us or the world how good they really are. In fact, people like Courtine or Rouge do not need to wear any belt to convince us how good they are. We know, we've seen them fight, they are part of history, our judo history.

By the way, Awazu Shōzō-sensei has refused being promoted to 10th dan by the FFJDA now and at any point in future, but was courteous enough not to do bluntly so in public. He has made it clear to the FFJDA he will only accept a 10th dan from the Kodokan. I cannot disagree with the man and the fact that there is still light in darkness makes my respect for him only grow even more. I just hope that he stays with us for another 5-7 years for that to happen. -_-

I shall personally file a motion with the JudoForum to amend Hanon-sensei's black/red-paneled belt with roman number 'M'. <_<


As in dial "M" for merde or is that murder?

I am not going to write 'what next' as it will happen in any case. I dont know a single Kohaku in France that will pay a blind bit of notice.

Mike
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#5 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 01:07 AM

View PostHanon, on Feb 23 2008, 09:58 AM, said:

As in dial "M" for merde or is that murder?

I am not going to write 'what next' as it will happen in any case. I dont know a single Kohaku in France that will pay a blind bit of notice.

Mike


'M' for Thousand to indicate you are worth a thousand dan-ranks, my friend (although we both know that in reality it stands for 'Mozart') -_-

http://en.wikipedia..../Roman_numerals

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 23 February 2008 - 01:55 AM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#6 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 01:13 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Feb 23 2008, 01:07 AM, said:

'M' for Thousand to indicate you are worth a thousand dan-ranks, my friend. -_-

http://en.wikipedia..../Roman_numerals


O all right I will suggest to Yukimitsu next time we have tea that you pass to Ju dan BUT only if youre a good Sensei here? So what do you say? :mellow:

Mike, one thousand dan (do I get a new obi for this though?)
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#7 User is offline   CBJudo 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 01:20 AM

Yes a special Red and Black obi where each panel is only 1 cm long. :glass)
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#8 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 01:35 AM

View PostCBJudo, on Feb 23 2008, 01:20 AM, said:

Yes a special Red and Black obi where each panel is only 1 cm long. :glass)


Then come on get to it and send me a picture of the obi so I can change my avtar.

Mike
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#9 User is offline   Francois 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 03:04 AM

Sacre bleu, faux pas
"The arts of peace and the arts of war are like two wheels of a cart which, lacking one, will have difficulty in standing."�Kuroda Nagamasa (1568-1623)

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#10 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 09:16 AM

View PostCBJudo, on Feb 23 2008, 03:20 AM, said:

Yes a special Red and Black obi where each panel is only 1 cm long. :glass)

I can hardly wait to see Hanon-sensei in his M-belt with thousand 1 cm panels wrapped multiple times around his torso. And next to him CK-sensei with his white belt indicating his pureness and willingness to accept the ju :lol:

Reminds me of this about 400 years old story of two ingenious fellas wandering around the Spain, n'est pas! :rolleyes:
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#11 User is offline   Jonesy 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 09:16 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Feb 23 2008, 12:36 AM, said:

This is another thread which Hanon-sensei and PTNippon-sensei are just going to love. <_<

The French, creative as they are in coming up with innovative haute couture from their famous fashion houses, have decided that kohaku belts need some crafty innovations. In future:

- The red-/white panels of a 6th dan kohaku belt will be 20 cm long and carry a roman number VI to indicate the rank + year of promotion
- The red-/white panels of a 7th dan kohaku belt will be 15 cm long and carry a roman number VII to indicate the rank + year of promotion
- The red-/white panels of a 6th dan kohaku belt will be 10 cm long and carry a roman number VIII to indicate the rank + year of promotion

Thus red-/white panels get progressively shorter until none are left and you have deserved a red belt 9th dan). No, this is not a joke. What a circus ! :rolleyes:

Attachment image054.jpg

This all serves the purpose of showing seniority. The French are very keen on hierarchy and different privileges with hierarchy. While it is almost impossible to prove, I believe that their pre-French Revolution obsession with hierarchy and their extreme emphasis on it is most likely responsible for the worldwide of obsession with dan-ranks we know to day. This did not exist under Kano, not simply Kawaishi's implementation of colors, but the emphasis of hierarchy screwed up the entire pedagogy behind it. I had a conversation a couple of years back with the vice-president of KLM, a large European airline, which merged with Air France. We discusses the cultural differences and how these had to be taken into account when preparing the successful merger. It was very interesting how the Dutch in doing business were so much more like the Americans: to the point, getting things over, people in a group express their opinion, and may very well be dressed in jeans. With Air France though, negotiations were inefficient, the French lost time with all sorts of extra-curricular stuff that simply had to do with living up to a status of being rich and important, and during conversations with the Board only the person on top would speak unless he instructed someone else to ... often simply addressing him by the last name; indeed a 'him' since virtually no women were included. One may feel that the Japanese society is a hierarchical society too. Sure, few societies have such levels of honorifics in their language and customs, but hierarchy in Japan is far less 'consciously' imposed (more embedded in culture) more 'received' than bluntly enforced. Such generalizations often attract a lot of criticism, but really ... the French have judo that is good enough, so that they do not need even more hierarchical items in their belt system to prove to us or the world how good they really are. In fact, people like Courtine or Rouge do not need to wear any belt to convince us how good they are. We know, we've seen them fight, they are part of history, our judo history.

By the way, Awazu Shōzō-sensei has refused being promoted to 10th dan by the FFJDA now and at any point in future, but was courteous enough not to do bluntly so in public. He has made it clear to the FFJDA he will only accept a 10th dan from the Kodokan. I cannot disagree with the man and the fact that there is still light in darkness makes my respect for him only grow even more. I just hope that he stays with us for another 5-7 years for that to happen. -_-

I shall personally file a motion with the JudoForum to amend Hanon-sensei's black/red-paneled belt with roman number 'M'. <_<

Having lived in France and being a self-confessed Francophile I agree with much of what CK-sensei writes.

Sound insight into the French psyche can be gleaned from the work of Hofstede - an influential Dutch writer on the interactions between national cultures and organizational cultures. Hofstede showed that there are national and regional cultural groupings that affect the behaviour of societies and organizations, and that are very persistent across time.

What provides insight into French behaviour is the concept of "Small vs. Large Power Distance" - that is the extent to which the less powerful members of institutions and organizations expect and accept that power is distributed unequally. Small power distance countries (e.g. The Netherlands) expect and accept power relations that are more consultative or democratic. People relate to one another more as equals regardless of formal positions. Subordinates are more comfortable with and demand the right to contribute to and critique the decision making of those in power. In large power distance countries (e.g. France) less powerful accept power relations that are more autocratic and paternalistic. Subordinates acknowledge the power of others simply based on where they are situated in certain formal, hierarchical positions.

A simple example - businessmen from the Netherlands will attend a meeting expecting to debate the issues; businessmen in France attend a meeting to hear what the boss has already decided!
Dr Llyr C Jones
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#12 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 09:17 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Feb 23 2008, 02:36 AM, said:

...
- The red-/white panels of a 6th dan kohaku belt will be 10 cm long and carry a roman number VIII to indicate the rank + year of promotion
....

8 ?
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#13 User is offline   Jonesy 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 09:22 AM

View PostCBJudo, on Feb 23 2008, 12:51 AM, said:

How very french! <_<

Is there actually any standard as to the length of the panels in a kohaku obi. Most I have seen seem to be of a relatively consistent size, however in some old film footage and photos of sensei such as Kenshiro Abe, Haku Michigami etc there seems to be much more irregularity, in one photo of Abe the panels seemed much shorter than seems to be common with most kohaku belts these days.


The only difference I have seen in the dimensions of the panels is correlated to the length of the obi - and this too depends on the manufacturer of the obi. I have seen instances when the panels on an obi for a "larger gentlemen" are much longer than those for a more normally proportioned individual.
Dr Llyr C Jones
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#14 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 09:35 AM

View Postfinarashi, on Feb 23 2008, 06:17 PM, said:

8 ?


I had already noticed the typo, Finarishi, and was in the process of correcting it when your post popped up. Thanks anyway.

View PostJonesy, on Feb 23 2008, 06:22 PM, said:

The only difference I have seen in the dimensions of the panels is correlated to the length of the obi - and this too depends on the manufacturer of the obi. I have seen instances when the panels on an obi for a "larger gentlemen" are much longer than those for a more normally proportioned individual.


But Remember how Kawaishi's colored panels were so short ? This was probably because the belt was handmade, as very few people wore such a belt in those days, and certainly in Europe which is where he was when he got promoted to kohaku rank. Yamashita and Nagaoka wore black belts, much in line with their koryu roots. I would not be surprised, that this decision in France was made in a restaurant over a baguette and glas of Merlot, after someone might have speculated about Kawaishi's belt.Oh my God, do you understand what that means ? Soon someone from the JA might come to the conclusion that the red & white belt they gave last year to President Roosevelt and which has relatively long panels, might in fact be an insult now that they are much longer than Kawaishi's. :o And what when Putin comes on the mat and his red & white panels are shorter than those of Roosevelt. My friends, it is clear that it is time for a crisis meeting. <_<

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 23 February 2008 - 09:36 AM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#15 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 11:56 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Feb 23 2008, 09:35 AM, said:

I had already noticed the typo, Finarishi, and was in the process of correcting it when your post popped up. Thanks anyway.
But Remember how Kawaishi's colored panels were so short ? This was probably because the belt was handmade, as very few people wore such a belt in those days, and certainly in Europe which is where he was when he got promoted to kohaku rank. Yamashita and Nagaoka wore black belts, much in line with their koryu roots. I would not be surprised, that this decision in France was made in a restaurant over a baguette and glas of Merlot, after someone might have speculated about Kawaishi's belt.Oh my God, do you understand what that means ? Soon someone from the JA might come to the conclusion that the red & white belt they gave last year to President Roosevelt and which has relatively long panels, might in fact be an insult now that they are much longer than Kawaishi's. :o And what when Putin comes on the mat and his red & white panels are shorter than those of Roosevelt. My friends, it is clear that it is time for a crisis meeting. <_<


But will any of these minor celebs affect MY obi here on this much more imortant forum! :mellow: I am now a very speacial rank here, a forum yodan with black and red obi with small stripes and a 'M' on the end next to my name.

BTW I dread to think of the cost of those obi in France? I shall, no doubt, be sent mine like it or not by my friends there. I shall dread seeing the postman for the next month or so. Life. Just as I had got used to wearing my faithful black obi again!

I need to balme someone and it might be you CKSensei or maybe Judosensei or PTNippon Sensei? Mmmmm.

When you reach the dizzy heights of Forum Shichidan dont forget how Nice I am to you!?

Mike

This post has been edited by Hanon: 23 February 2008 - 11:59 AM

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