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Ukemi-no-kata Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 12:24 PM

http://ca.youtube.co...feature=related <_<
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#2 User is offline   Steve Leadbeater 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 12:43 PM

They must be bloody joking..............tell me that is not genuine.................PLEASE !!
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#3 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 01:09 PM

View PostSteve Leadbeater, on Jan 15 2008, 09:43 PM, said:

They must be bloody joking..............tell me that is not genuine.................PLEASE !!


You clearly have not yet done your exam for red-/black-striped belt. -_-
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#4 User is offline   gaijinsmash 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 01:18 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jan 15 2008, 10:09 PM, said:

You clearly have not yet done your exam for red-/black-striped belt. -_-


At least the're wearing their lovely blue gi <_<

There's even the solo version incase you cant find a 'qualified' partner http://ca.youtube.co...feature=related

This post has been edited by gaijinsmash: 15 January 2008 - 01:29 PM

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#5 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 06:39 PM

Here is a question. I spend a lot of time here judging others peoples kata and writing about kata and how it is dying. Now these judoka have made a kata of their own and are at the very least showing interest in kata or formalised judo. I am certainly NOT going to debate if this is kata or not. What I would like to write is at least they are having a bash at something non shiai and trying hard to understand ukemi. Can that be such a bad thing?

I am going to get of the fence and take my hat of to them. I will add that if they practiced this set of movements and realy had a sensei who could put some spirit into them and help them I think we would have two more judoka who would learn the kata of judo and become interested in the deeper aspects of our budo. I applaud them both.

No confrontation ment to my esteemed friends.

Mike
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#6 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 06:53 PM

Not bad ukemi
I can see Hannon sensei's point. It employs good ukemi techniques (though the backwards rolling through one is a bit odd), arranges them in a sensible way to practice. I think the problem is that you can't expect all kata to be as rich and refined as the "big 7" Kodokan kata. It is like books, not every book is, or has to be a great classic. I think the flip side of the coin is that when some people develop a kata they expect it to automatically rise to that level, just because it is kata. This carries through to overly formalized stuff that just ends up looking goofy (like the koshiki no kata bow in the itsutsu no kata that CK posted a while back) kind of like religious types trying to employ King James Bible English to sound "churchy".
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#7 User is offline   Kaji 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 03:11 AM

View PostTaigyo, on Jan 16 2008, 02:53 AM, said:

(though the backwards rolling through one is a bit odd)

I think it is not the most efficient nor the safest, as compared to what I've seen in certain Aikido schools.
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#8 User is offline   johan smits 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 10:34 AM

Just poking my nose where it doesn't belong.

I think Yagyu Shingan-ryu has a torimi no kata in which they train ukemi - also with sword and with helmet. That is interesting.

I never trained in Yagyu Shingan-ryu myself but I saw them rolling with a helmet on using one hand/arm to hold their head/helmet. That was quite good I thought - I even used this to teach one of my jujutsu students who was very keen on training but had the muscles in his neck removed (he was very seriously ill) making ukemi dangerous to him. After watching the torimi no kata I taught him to roll and fall while using one arm to protect his head. Worked wonderfully.

Happy landings,

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#9 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 11:38 AM

View Postjohan smits, on Jan 16 2008, 07:34 PM, said:

Just poking my nose where it doesn't belong.

I think Yagyu Shingan-ryu has a torimi no kata in which they train ukemi - also with sword and with helmet. That is interesting.

I never trained in Yagyu Shingan-ryu myself but I saw them rolling with a helmet on using one hand/arm to hold their head/helmet. That was quite good I thought - I even used this to teach one of my jujutsu students who was very keen on training but had the muscles in his neck removed (he was very seriously ill) making ukemi dangerous to him. After watching the torimi no kata I taught him to roll and fall while using one arm to protect his head. Worked wonderfully.

Happy landings,

Johan Smits



Judo has retained relatively few different types of ukemi, really only 4 types. Some koryu schools had some really freaky types of ukemi, including, falling in bridge, flips, cartwheel falls, etc. Many the sort of type that no insurance company would cover today, and where probably parents would call the police if they knew you were expecting their children to do that. -_-

My favorites are the Malaysians though; they don't know when to stop. <_<

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=aju7BNKIlaE
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#10 User is offline   Inferus 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 01:32 PM

I thought their ukemi was actually very dangerous.

As I understand it, ukemi is supposed to make you bounce from the mat in a relaxed fashion, a bit like a ragdoll but with some direction.

I think there is a place for a ukemi no kata, but not in this way. Maybe as uke to some motions from a tori;

Rolling ukemi, from tori doing yoko otoshi, both sides
Backwards ukemi from tori doing morote gari
Side ukemi from ouchi gari, so a backwards fall.
Side ukemi from ippon seoi nage, or any shoulder throw
Side ukemi from harai goshi

"Leg only" ukemi would also be a good option to add in.

I only think the above, as it would create regular situations for uke to practice ukemi, having two people otherwise seems pointless!
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#11 User is offline   Tsurumaki 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 01:53 PM

View PostHanon, on Jan 16 2008, 03:39 AM, said:

Here is a question. I spend a lot of time here judging others peoples kata and writing about kata and how it is dying. Now these judoka have made a kata of their own and are at the very least showing interest in kata or formalised judo. I am certainly NOT going to debate if this is kata or not. What I would like to write is at least they are having a bash at something non shiai and trying hard to understand ukemi. Can that be such a bad thing?

I am going to get of the fence and take my hat of to them. I will add that if they practiced this set of movements and realy had a sensei who could put some spirit into them and help them I think we would have two more judoka who would learn the kata of judo and become interested in the deeper aspects of our budo. I applaud them both.


Yes, nothing wrong with what they tried, but they have a way to go. Also, what's with the loose mat covering? Designer wrinkles?
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#12 User is offline   gaijinsmash 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 02:53 PM

Im feeling a bit bad about my previous post, especialy in the light of hannon Sensei's coments.

In my opinion what they showed was a Ukemi drill, these types of exercises are undoubtedly very useful to help learning Ukemi. They would also be a useful warm up exercisie. An interest in Kata should be welcomed.
However Ive always thought that kata should show a fundemental priniciple as well as logical progression from one technique to another.
Also is there any need for the elaborate bowing ceremony to a partner when you are both doing esentialy solo excercises.
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#13 User is offline   Kaji 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 04:33 PM

View PostInferus, on Jan 16 2008, 09:32 PM, said:

I think there is a place for a ukemi no kata, but not in this way. Maybe as uke to some motions from a tori;

Rolling ukemi, from tori doing yoko otoshi, both sides
Backwards ukemi from tori doing morote gari
Side ukemi from ouchi gari, so a backwards fall.
Side ukemi from ippon seoi nage, or any shoulder throw
Side ukemi from harai goshi

Why not simply practise Nage-no-kata? One might argue that Nage-no-kata does not contain all the Ukemi types, but note that it does not contain all the Nage-waza either. Building on the point that Kata should be illustrations of Judo principles, rather than a mere collection of techniques, Nage-no-kata certainly illustrates principles regarding the Ukemi-waza therein.

While I share the view of many others here that Kata practice should be encouraged, my question would be: why create a new Kata for demonstration while you could spend the time studying and practising the existing ones? You have people like CK Sensei, whose Tokui-waza is the Gokyo (left and right too). Why not perhaps start with making Nage-no-kata your Tokui-waza (yes, left and right)? Then perhaps you might be in a better position to see whether you still feel the need to create something like this Ukemi-no-kata.

Inferus: By the way, I think that the Ukemi for a properly-done O-uchi-gari is the backward Ukemi. Also, just to clarify the "you" in the my above paragraph was not directed to you.

This post has been edited by Kaji: 16 January 2008 - 04:38 PM

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#14 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 05:42 PM

good point
I think another aspect of kata that is neglected is how much you can learn as uke. Uke must be approached as an active role and not just a dummy.
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#15 User is offline   tis 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 07:41 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jan 16 2008, 12:38 PM, said:

My favorites are the Malaysians though; they don't know when to stop. <_<
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=aju7BNKIlaE

:blink: Those fellows are dancing mad. They have been bitten by the Tarantula. :rolly:
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