[Judoinmotion]

Well, I know there are charts that shows you where you should keep your heart rate in a certain zones while running according to your goals such as: weigh loss, aerobics etc...But there is fitness and there is JUDO fitness.
In judo, during a hard randori or shiai, my heart rate goes to the max, which is 175-180 in less than 2 min. (I never checked before but it is how it feels). At the dojo, I am trying to randori hard for 5 min and rest for 5 min or so for about one hour. I figure if I am to fight at 178lbs division, I have to keep a faster pace as oppose to the masters division. I am struggling and I am not happy with my current judo fitness. I am looking forward to a tournament on the 27th and I want to compete in the seniors division (I am soon to be 43)
For the last two weeks (4 times a week) I've being in the thread mill walking for 5 min and than I run 2 miles in 19 min or less and cool down for 5/6 min. before going to the weigh room.
So, my question is: To help my judo endurance, while running in the thread mill, should I keep my heart rate in the max range for as long as I can, so my heart will get use to be on the max? Is it dangerous? Or, should I keep my heart rate on the max for 5 min. and slow down for 5 min. and then go up again... and keep on doing it for 30 min?
Any input will be appreciated.

[Yoman]

I can't answer your question but as far as randori is conserned, you should do more than 5 minutes in my opinion. One of the best, if not the best, methods for judo endurance is doing randori standing as well as on the ground while your opponent is changing every minute. When a new opponent starts, he should immediately start at 100% in order not to give you any break. After a couple of minutes you won't be able to attack your opponent anymore but you should still try to resist as much as possible. I'm not sure wether it is good to this at your age but it is a very efficient method to improve judo specific endurance.

This post has been edited by Yoman: 12 January 2008 - 09:39 PM

[Man of steel]

here is an article i wrote last week on cardio for judo.
it will explain alot for you.
any questions just pm me but this should cover it.

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[Cichorei Kano]

Judoinmotion, on Jan 13 2008, 05:01 AM, said:

Well, I know there are charts that shows you where you should keep your heart rate in a certain zones while running according to your goals such as: weigh loss, aerobics etc...But there is fitness and there is JUDO fitness.
In judo, during a hard randori or shiai, my heart rate goes to the max, which is 175-180 in less than 2 min. (I never checked before but it is how it feels). At the dojo, I am trying to randori hard for 5 min and rest for 5 min or so for about one hour. I figure if I am to fight at 178lbs division, I have to keep a faster pace as oppose to the masters division. I am struggling and I am not happy with my current judo fitness. I am looking forward to a tournament on the 27th and I want to compete in the seniors division (I am soon to be 43)
For the last two weeks (4 times a week) I've being in the thread mill walking for 5 min and than I run 2 miles in 19 min or less and cool down for 5/6 min. before going to the weigh room.
So, my question is: To help my judo endurance, while running in the thread mill, should I keep my heart rate in the max range for as long as I can, so my heart will get use to be on the max? Is it dangerous? Or, should I keep my heart rate on the max for 5 min. and slow down for 5 min. and then go up again... and keep on doing it for 30 min?
Any input will be appreciated.

I have addressed this question before in detail. It's a little bit like peeling an onion, and there are various layers of depth to the answer.

Such zones, are estimates, and are also based on a very simplified appreciation of physiology, a view that unfortunately is also found on most websites and text books. That view argues that low to moderate exercise intensity needs to be done for weight loss and that high-exercise intensity is not effective for that purpose. This is of course absurd. The higher exercise intensity the more fat you will, burn. It is as simple as that. The error in the view is caused by extrapolation of the simple view that in order to burn fat, a respiratory quotient of around 0.7 is necessary, while a respiratory quotient of 1, which is seen at very intense exercise, implies pure carbohydrate burning. The last two statements can indeed biochemically be proven, but you cannot extrapolate them to the earlier conclusion. What the equation does not take into account is that the higher the exercise intensity, the higher the Exercise-post oxygen consumption, the longer the metabolism remains increased, and the higher the intestinal transit of food. Taking all these factors into account, the highest exercise intensity will imply the most dramatic weight loss. Two problems though: (1) the highest exercise intensity by far risks most injuries, and (2) in order to attain and sustain really high exercise intensity you already need to be highly trained. Because of that, high exercise intensity training usually is not a realistic option for most people.

Now, approaching your question ...

A young person in good shape, with no underlying unknown cardiovascular impairments engaging in high-intensity exercise is not doing anything dangerous.

As a person reaches higher age, usually a theoretical cut-off age of 35 years, there is an increase in underlying unknown pathologies, and decreased integrity of the cardiovascular system. Thus, no doubt the risk increases. This is, as said, nothing more than an average based on the general population. The reality is, that most likely someone like Lance Armstrong (who is 36) or Neil Adams (who is 49), are obviously not at any risk, and far less at risk than an average person of 28 years old, because of their long and intense careers in top-sport and sustained training. The question is: where do YOU fit into this equation ? That answer I do not know, thus in order to give you an honest response, a proper medical examination with maximum exercise test would be necessary to provide an informed response.

You point out that "In judo, during a hard randori or shiai, my heart rate goes to the max, which is 175-180 in less than 2 min" (...).

You have to be careful there. Many competitors, during important events have a heart beat of 170 when they step on the mat. Obviously they are not even exercising, hence why somehow this must be something different. Well ... Pavlov is never far away. Interruption of vagal tone (meaning ... inhibiting the effect of acetylcholine secreted as part of the break control of the Vagus nerve on the heart) and stimulation of alpha- and beta-adrenergic receptors through the immediate release of epinephrine as well as other mechanisms all together termed the "nervus acceleratores cardis" (= the speeding-up nervous control mechanisms of the heart) kick in way before there is any physical demand on the structure. You know very well that in case something scares you, you nearly immediately feel your heart bouncing in your chest. This proves that this triggering mechanism is very, very fast.

In addtion, during the start of a judo or any similar sports, you also suffer from relative hyperventilation without really needing that much air. Because of these reasons, it is no surprise that many competitors after just half a minute of competition are wet from the sweat, while often when they go running it might take them longer than 5 minutes before you see a drop of sweat appear.

It's all in the head, all psychological, but it is REAL, it is an example of ... psycho-physiology, the bridge between what goes on in the mind and in the body.

While you don't really ask this question, somehow it is implied therein, that is ... how can I recreate in training what happens in competition, and thus best train for those demands ? Very, very difficult. You can recreate the pure physical demands, but it is nearly impossible to create the exact psycho-physiological demands.

Practically ... thus ... the only thing you can do is what you are doing.

Now ... your concluding question is: "To help my judo endurance, while running in the thread mill, should I keep my heart rate in the max range for as long as I can, so my heart will get use to be on the max? Is it dangerous? Or, should I keep my heart rate on the max for 5 min. and slow down for 5 min. and then go up again... and keep on doing it for 30 min? " (...)

You are already giving the answer yourself. You need to do both. You should indeed try and keep your heart rate as high as possible for as long as possible. Both intensity and time matter. This means ... yes ... it should be as high as possible ... BUT unless you are able to sustain this for a period that is long enough ... you are missing out.

In brief:

(1) Keep running your 2 miles. Run them as fast as you can and try always to run faster, but at the same time try over time to extend that distance.
(2) The part you are addressing in your last sentence really is interval training. Supplement your sustained endurance training (explained above under sub 1) with regular interval training sessions, where you do an all-out exercise which you can only sustain for very limited time 20-90 seconds depending on the distance, followed by a timed resting period, after which you repeat the exercise, and keep alternating this until you are completely exhausted.

This will be $96 consultation fee, see you in Beijing.

[rberry13]

Cichorei Kano, on Jan 12 2008, 07:20 PM, said:

This will be $96 consultation fee, see you in Beijing.

If you put this on a DVD or Audio CD, I bet you could get, say... $127.

[Judoinmotion]

Thanks CK. Everything you said makes sense. Give me you name and address and I'll send you a check!

Man of steel, on Jan 12 2008, 04:51 PM, said:

here is an article i wrote last week on cardio for judo.it will explain alot for you.any questions just pm me but this should cover it.

This is great! Thank you! You are 22.

This post has been edited by Judoinmotion: 14 January 2008 - 05:48 PM

[BoxingJudoka]

Great explanation CK, thanks.

[Steve Leadbeater]

I would think that if you are going to fight in Masters you should do what most Masters fighters do.............................


Give thanks that you STILL have a "Heart Rate"

[COJudoka]

Steve Leadbeater, on Jan 15 2008, 06:38 PM, said:

I would think that if you are going to fight in Masters you should do what most Masters fighters do.............................
Give thanks that you STILL have a "Heart Rate"

Isn't beer involved too????

[Cichorei Kano]

Judoinmotion, on Jan 15 2008, 01:49 AM, said:

Thanks CK. Everything you said makes sense. Give me you name and address and I'll send you a check!

Sure, no problem, just send it to:

3734 Elvis Presley Boulevard, Memphis, TN 38186-0508, Phone 1 (901) 332-3322.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 16 January 2008 - 12:07 AM

[Qmystic]

Awesome CK.

I read plenty, but you supercede them all:):)

I don't even want to ask if a good base in aerobic is neccessary...:)

no, No, NO...

Make sure your book is BIG.

This post has been edited by der commissar: 17 January 2008 - 03:03 AM