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Kuzushi In Kime No Kata provided by atemi? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 05:52 PM

I have heard it mentioned that kime no kata is all about tai sabaki. However, isn't a lot of the kuzushi provided by (or at least significantly aided by) the atemi?
In ryote dori, tori's arm movement unbalances uke forward, but then a kick is delivered to the solar plexus before taking the arm bar. In suri age, tori has uke's attacking arm pretty well under control, but still delivers a kick before taking uke to the mat. Are the strikes to the face supposed to elicit the same response as the strike does in goshin jutsu furi oroshi? That is, while not actually making contact, my sensei can still cause me to rear back in reaction to the strike.
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#2 User is offline   Sir Harry Flashman 

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 06:39 PM

Even if the first strike in Goshin Jutsu's Furioroshi makes contact, it's not going to amount to much. Whether you rear back or your sensei manages to land a quick stinger, it's mainly a distraction to set up the more important takedown technique. If the 'stinger' doesn't significantly unbalance you, it will at least buy a second's time, as seems to be the case in much of Goshin Jutsu, with the exception perhaps of those shots to the chin.

In Kime No Kata, the atemi would appear to take on greater significance, both in terms of impact upon uke and in demonstrating that your tai sabaki is one in the same with uke's kuzushi. In those two techniques the positions appear to anticpate any 'real' reaction on uke's part, front or back, pushing or pulling. Those are some pretty hard tags to the gut. If you don't break him structurally, then you're going to impair his ability to move and react, which could be a form of kuzushi. Even if he's tough and you don't hurt him too much, you have, as in Goshin Jutsu, bought yourself a second for the finishing maneuver.

In practice, since you can't kill your partner, his reeling back would be a structural kuzushi, his freezing and wincing would be an impairment to his movement. Ultimately, yes, in a practical situation, causing a flinch is a legitimate technique.
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#3 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 11:33 PM

For some reason the way my sensei does the strike in furioroshi it really knocks me back, even though he never actually makes contact. Kind of a big flinch response sort of thing. If I am a weenie, then I am not alone as I have seen it done to other people as well. In the kneeling techniques that lead into hara gatame, it seems that some sort of kuzushi is neccessary to get the collar grip, if not the strike, where does it come from.
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#4 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 01:35 AM

View PostTaigyo, on Dec 10 2007, 05:52 PM, said:

I have heard it mentioned that kime no kata is all about tai sabaki. However, isn't a lot of the kuzushi provided by (or at least significantly aided by) the atemi?
In ryote dori, tori's arm movement unbalances uke forward, but then a kick is delivered to the solar plexus before taking the arm bar. In suri age, tori has uke's attacking arm pretty well under control, but still delivers a kick before taking uke to the mat. Are the strikes to the face supposed to elicit the same response as the strike does in goshin jutsu furi oroshi? That is, while not actually making contact, my sensei can still cause me to rear back in reaction to the strike.


Very good post and very good questions.

The strikes you mention are to concentrate uke on the strike and not your end goal that of an udekansetsuwaza. In several other attacks tori atacks the eyes of uke with a punch, this is to make ukes eyes water and stun him plus focus uke on the punch and away from the goal of what tori is about to do.

You are correct when you write kime no kata does focus around taisabaki but also many other important concepts of judo. Action-reaction, speed,
co-ordination of hands and body, study of kuzushi, rational of non resistance, control and confidence in having ones personal space invaded etc.

Mike
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#5 User is offline   jujutsuguy 

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 06:35 PM

if I may give some insight into atemi from a Jujutsuka.

I am no expert in Judo nor In Kime no Kata. Though I have seem it done.

In Jujutsu the atemi is used for two reasons (prior to another waza)

One an atemi serves to unbalance the mind... It takes the attackers mind of your next move.

More importantly.... Atemi is ment in old school Jujutsu to compliment Kuzushi.

That is to say...
I strike you in a manner that creates or harmonizes with the kuzushi needed to finish a given waza.

for example a palm heel to the face helps create kuzushi for O soto gari

to strike to the grion and then attempt o sosot gari is counter productive.

any thoughts
shawn
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#6 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 07:14 PM

That is pretty much what kuzushi is all about.
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#7 User is offline   jujutsuguy 

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 10:52 PM

question ?

In Judo there exists "Kime No Kata" and Goshin Jutsu.

thats said..Goshin -Jutsu is a method of self defense. Or better said the art of

what confuses me is why there are two sets of waza dealing with self defense in the Kodokan Judo system?

is Kime no Kata preserved kata from Kano's previous Jujutsu teachings ?

and goshin-justu Judo's version of self defense methods ?

thanks
shawn
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#8 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 11:04 PM

Kime no kata is the older of the two kata. I believe it was one of the first kata finished, and is supposed to have a fairly strong connection to Jujutsu (look at some of the earlier threads where this is discussed). Goshin Jutsu was developed in the 1950's to address self-defense situations that would be more likely to arise in modern times (when was the last time you were sitting in seiza sipping tea and your guest suddenly attacked you with a knife?). Each illustrates not only self-defense techniques, but important Judo principles.

Check out this thread for a discussion of the history of kime no kata
http://judoforum.com...?showtopic=9044

This post has been edited by Taigyo: 27 December 2007 - 11:11 PM

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