[Cichorei Kano]

shiran, on Dec 4 2007, 01:48 PM, said:

I found a few variations of the armlock which is definetly not ude garami but show the arm being crushed. This is on page 66 of the Kosen Judo book. From what I understand this is quite popular in BJJ. (pressurel.jpg)

The 2nd is using your own arms and crushing the arm. I've probably been taught this move by every Judo teacher I've ever had, but I don't believe it is any form of ude garami as its a crush and not twisting the joint. I was told by 2 BJJ purple belts it is illegal in BJJ.(pressurel2.jpg)

Do you think these 2 grey area techniques have slipped through history but should be discarded?
If they are not allowed, then why are they not taught under the conditions they are only for SD?

Have you been taught these techniques by your teachers?
If so, what does that mean for us? That while they exist in Judo books, movies, and are currently taught, they should be banned as they are not attacking the correct area of the arm as they are not qualified as ude garami?

Um ... no, nothing is being 'crushed'. There does not exist anything such as 'crushing' the arm in jûdô, provided that it would be physically even possible to 'crush' an arm. This is complete nonsense. You are trying to describe from a picture a technique which you obviously are unfamiliar with ... in judo. In the technique shown, the left shin pins the humerus or upper arm against the mat, whereas the upper body pushes the underarm sideways in a twisting motion. It is an unusual technique in jûdô. Sankaku-gatame as a term is an abbrevation of ude-hishigi-sankaku-gatame, thus a form of overstretching whereby control is exerted by the legs put into a triangular motion. The technique shown technically cannot be 'sankaku-gatame', since it does not fall within the class of ude-hishigi, but of ude-garami. Ude-garami does not have subdivisions.

There will always be movements in jûdô where discomfort increases by the extreme position a limb is in, produced by both trying to enforce and trying to escape from an armlock or choke. As judo is a martial art, traditionally, particularly in kôsen, one has always avoided making it into "winning by rules", hence why unusual applications were generally considered as creativity rather than violations. Nevertheless, this technique does not aim, nor does it achieve to crush. The force produced by a human is insufficient to 'crush' an arm. It would require the bite of large animal such as a tiger or alligator to do so, which can generate up to lbs 3,000 per square inch. No human can achieve such extreme forces.

[vejatabul]

Funny.

I did both a compression arm lock and a biceps slicer on my girlfriend this morning. It was the first time I had done either in years.



She was not amused.

[Cichorei Kano]

vejatabul, on Dec 4 2007, 04:38 PM, said:

Funny.

I did both a compression arm lock and a biceps slicer on my girlfriend this morning. It was the first time I had done either in years.
She was not amused.

They're rarely amused unless (1) you give them a present when they know well they do not deserve one, or (2) they've got you in a place from where no escape is possible. Run, man, run !!

[vejatabul]

Cichorei Kano, on Dec 4 2007, 08:24 AM, said:

They're rarely amused unless (1) you give them a present when they know well they do not deserve one, or (2) they've got you in a place from where no escape is possible. Run, man, run !!

I mean, I am not saying she does not like rolling around every once in a great while, I think she just does not like the pain thing.

I do not get it? What is not to love about pain? I broke six ribs on my right hand side in the last year. I broke two toes. I tore up my ankle pretty badly. That did not keep me from going to judo.


Maybe she is just faking to try and make me act like I care.

The joke is on her...I was faking the whole care thing!


Haha!

[RightintheFace]

I've had the pleasure of working with this man. I don't know or care what he invented, but he's an encyclopedia and also a wonderful guy.

[FlowWTG]

The top picture is a submission such as one might arrive at after a "spider" sweep. Lowering your weight down on the forearm thus trapped both drives your shin into the bicep, producing pain, and eventually causes the elbow joint to split, making the targeted arm look like a U instead of a V.

It is a submission both from the extreme pain of the bicep crush and the eventual joint destruction.

The term "crush" in the context of that attack upon the arm means to painfully crush the bicep muscle. The actual joint destruction danger is unrelated to this name for the attack and is more properly referred to as an elbow separator.

I'm not sure if that's what you meant, Cichorei Kano. Are you saying that sideways torque applied by the torso will also produce a submission? As turning your arm sideways while creating space is the primary method for escaping this submission attempt I have a hard time picturing such a jointlock.

[Cichorei Kano]

FlowWTG, on Dec 4 2007, 10:55 PM, said:

The top picture is a submission such as one might arrive at after a "spider" sweep. Lowering your weight down on the forearm thus trapped both drives your shin into the bicep, producing pain, and eventually causes the elbow joint to split, making the targeted arm look like a U instead of a V.

It is a submission both from the extreme pain of the bicep crush and the eventual joint destruction.

The term "crush" in the context of that attack upon the arm means to painfully crush the bicep muscle. The actual joint destruction danger is unrelated to this name for the attack and is more properly referred to as an elbow separator.

I'm not sure if that's what you meant, Cichorei Kano. Are you saying that sideways torque applied by the torso will also produce a submission? As turning your arm sideways while creating space is the primary method for escaping this submission attempt I have a hard time picturing such a jointlock.

The difficulty for me in responding to your posts is that you use all sorts of different terminology, much of which is not jûdô. I cannot comment on what is being done or common in BJJ or wrestling. In jûdô there are no such things as 'submission' or 'biceps crush' (Note: the singular of biceps is biceps, not 'bicep'), nor is there any such thing as an 'elbow separator'. Those are not terms from jûdô, and do not exist in jûdô.

However, the picture you post ... IS jûdô, hence why jûdô terminology applies. I explained to you what that armlock is called, and I explained how it is performed. That armlock properly performed does not work the way you describe it. Now, it may very well be that you know and master and do an armlock that does what you describe, but that is not what is shown on the picture. In addition to Hirano- and Okano-sensei, one of my most important sensei was Kurimura-sensei who is one of the last remaining Kôsen jûdôka, and the partner to Kurimura on various of his videos. I don't have the book that reference was made to here on my desk, but I can look at it at home, and see if he is also featured in the book. So, I have the technique ude-hishigi-sankaku-gatame as well as the ude-garami-henka first hand, not adaptations or alternatives that exist in BJJ or MMA

[jubo]

Hi I ws taught this armlock at Kodokan in 1967...as an armlock and when using Tateshiho Gatame..I suspect it was developed originally from Tateshiho...almost certainly in japan

This post has been edited by jubo: 08 December 2007 - 11:26 PM

[jubo]

Firstly I must apologise i should have replied after watching the video..However That particular move was common place in Tokyo in 1967 utilising the blade of the wrist and Judoka with shortlegs could also Sankaku the arm for added pressure..Using the blade of the wrist was also utilised in a a particular turnover which ended up in tate-shiho by trapping the leading arm just above the elbow and holding your own lapel with your right arm and adeep grip onto your opponents belt with your left arm.."cutting the grass with your feet enables a quick roll-over into tateshiho-gatame and often a submission from the pressure from the forearm blade..
Also the same idea was popular in a variation of Yokoshiho where the blade of the forearm puts pressure on the back of the neck while anchored to the gi at the shoulder..It was common place to learn this technique in a practise situation by getting with a partner and learning how to position ones wrist to maximum effect..In those days in Tokyo 1967 there were very few from the USA actively practising ..The longest standing USA Judoka I suspect would have been the late Donn Draeger who was then 52 and enjoyed newaza ..Paul Mauryama..he was more a Tachiwaza specialist....Greg Zorin..but he arrived in 67..These techniques in my opinion were not new in 67 ..far from it..In those days there were many Japanese Sensei to old for active randori but still extremely strong in newaza with a wide range of differing schools of thought on newaza techniques..

[kosen666]

Cichorei Kano, on Dec 4 2007, 05:43 AM, said:

Um ... no, nothing is being 'crushed'. There does not exist anything such as 'crushing' the arm in jûdô, provided that it would be physically even possible to 'crush' an arm. This is complete nonsense. You are trying to describe from a picture a technique which you obviously are unfamiliar with ... in judo. In the technique shown, the left shin pins the humerus or upper arm against the mat, whereas the upper body pushes the underarm sideways in a twisting motion. It is an unusual technique in jûdô. Sankaku-gatame as a term is an abbrevation of ude-hishigi-sankaku-gatame, thus a form of overstretching whereby control is exerted by the legs put into a triangular motion. The technique shown technically cannot be 'sankaku-gatame', since it does not fall within the class of ude-hishigi, but of ude-garami. Ude-garami does not have subdivisions.

There will always be movements in jûdô where discomfort increases by the extreme position a limb is in, produced by both trying to enforce and trying to escape from an armlock or choke. As judo is a martial art, traditionally, particularly in kôsen, one has always avoided making it into "winning by rules", hence why unusual applications were generally considered as creativity rather than violations. Nevertheless, this technique does not aim, nor does it achieve to crush. The force produced by a human is insufficient to 'crush' an arm. It would require the bite of large animal such as a tiger or alligator to do so, which can generate up to lbs 3,000 per square inch. No human can achieve such extreme forces.

It has to be some kind of british humour. who ever CK is...or they are ...lol

Its obviously a splitting elbow joint technique here. May I suggest for the details :

www.sjsu.edu/depts/hup/gradath/arm.ppt

Who cares what the freakin japanese name is... that technique is attaking the lateral collateral ligament in a spreading motion.

Dont agree ? Never been there. My opinion.

[Upper Valley Judo]

kosen666, on Dec 11 2007, 11:09 PM, said:

It has to be some kind of british humour. who ever CK is...or they are ...lol

Its obviously a splitting elbow joint technique here. May I suggest for the details :

www.sjsu.edu/depts/hup/gradath/arm.ppt

Who cares what the freakin japanese name is... that technique is attaking the lateral collateral ligament in a spreading motion.

Dont agree ? Never been there. My opinion.

I agree that the top photo is applying pressure to the forearm/elbow as in a bicep crush. It is not twisting the arm as in an ude gurami.

When I used to compete in BJJ, this was legal. But it seems that it no longer is. I know someone who had their forearm broken about 2 years ago in a submission tournament. The problem is that it may not hurt that much but then the arm can just go.

[Feanor76]

Cichorei Kano, on Dec 4 2007, 10:57 PM, said:

Note: the singular of biceps is biceps, not 'bicep'

While not a medical term, "bicep" is an accepted colloquial term for a singular biceps muscle. Check your friendly Merriam-Webster dictionary -- if anyone has an OED, that would be the real test.

Regards,
Mark