[PolackAttack]

http://www.expertvil...mlock-video.htm

In the short video, John Anderson claims that he developed the compression armlock (also referred to as a bicep slicer in bjj) forty years ago. I was just curious if this was true? If this was developed in the States, is this lock taught in Japan as well?

Here is another video of the compression armlock/bicep slicer.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=sC82PZfAqY0

[Judo Tom]

He might have developed it forty years ago but I'm pretty sure others have developed it before him as well.

Regardless I just came upon this series of videos on the web today and cant wait to watch them all!

John Anderson tested me for my shodan exam and basically schooled me on armlocks while he tested me. I thought I had armlocks down pretty good and would test strongly on them... nope he was able to pick apart all the minor flaws I had and it really helped me out. I have a lot of respect for him!


also that is slightly different then what most people, especially bjj people, would call a compression lock. That looked more like a painful attack against the forearm. which could definitely work but when i hear compression lock i think of the type of lock where you insert your arm/leg deep into the crook of the elbow and then move the wrist towards the shoulder. BJJ guys will call this a bicep slicer.

This post has been edited by Judo Tom: 12 November 2007 - 09:28 PM

[kosen666]

Maybe he means he developped that particular way of doing it.

However, it is a poor way to do it for a few reasons.

[kosen666]

------------------------

Re-reading that it sound bad...no offense intended here.

[Cichorei Kano]

PolackAttack, on Nov 13 2007, 06:15 AM, said:

http://www.expertvil...mlock-video.htm

In the short video, John Anderson claims that he developed the compression armlock (also referred to as a bicep slicer in bjj) forty years ago. I was just curious if this was true? If this was developed in the States, is this lock taught in Japan as well?

Here is another video of the compression armlock/bicep slicer.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=sC82PZfAqY0

Interesting, as technically it isn't allowed in competitive jûdô; Randori and shiai only recognize overstretching (ude-hishigi) and arm twisting (ude-garami), not arm compression or otherwise inflicting pain or damage to the elbow.

[PolackAttack]

Cichorei Kano, on Nov 12 2007, 08:03 PM, said:

Interesting, as technically it isn't allowed in competitive jûdô; Randori and shiai only recognize overstretching (ude-hishigi) and arm twisting (ude-garami), not arm compression or otherwise inflicting pain or damage to the elbow.

That's too bad, I was looking forward to using it. My instructor showed us this lock and never mentioned that it wasn't legal. I suppose it's not that much more work to break the person's grip and apply juji-gatame.

[Cichorei Kano]

PolackAttack, on Nov 13 2007, 10:43 AM, said:

That's too bad, I was looking forward to using it. My instructor showed us this lock and never mentioned that it wasn't legal. I suppose it's not that much more work to break the person's grip and apply juji-gatame.

For most instructors and for many referees this sort of techniques is going to be in the grey area. Whilst armlocks put on the elbow ... in general ... are allowed, not every possibly way aimed at producing injury to the elbow by some sort of physical action is allow; the idea still has to be either overstretching or twisting. For the same reason, you cannot go simply stand on the elbow, hoping it will hurt enough for the opponent to tap off, nor can you bite the elbow, or hit it with your fist, since none of these represent 'overstretching' or 'twisting'.

[kosen666]

Interesting indeed. I was also taught that techniqe (2nd video) by a really experienced Sensei as a legal technique in judo.That was in 1995. Was it legal ? Did it change since then ?It is overstretching, or rather overspreading the elbow. So it must be accepted i guess.

[Cichorei Kano]

kosen666, on Nov 13 2007, 12:59 PM, said:

Interesting indeed. I was also taught that techniqe (2nd video) by a really experienced Sensei as a legal technique in judo.That was in 1995. Was it legal ? Did it change since then ?It is overstretching, or rather overspreading the elbow. So it must be accepted i guess.

How can 'overfolding' be overstretching ? It is NOT overstretching. Overstretching means to exceed an angle larger than its maximum physical range of motion. It's extension, hyperextension, overstretching. The technique described her goes to other way; the joint angle is forced to be so small that the integrity of the joins exceeded by pulling it apart but not by overstretching. Nothing has changed; injuring the elbow joint in any other way but armtwisting or overstretching has never been legal in jûdô shiai, not in 1995, and not now. That doesn't mean that there are not going to be people or referees who are going to claim the opposite; it is similar to standing armlocks going in lock to the ground, of which various people now will claim that it is illegal, while it has never been illegal in judo, EXCEPT for the sole case of waki-gatame, or a lock were the opponent is vertically pushed on the ground, forced to fall on his face, as he cannot break his fall, and there is no control of uke's falling motion; that is the sole case that is or has ever been prohibited.

[shiran]

Hi CK. My neck is feeling slightly better, I tried to message you personally a few times but it didn't go through. As you've said before your inbox is always full.

I was taught that second compression lock (youtube one) by a 7th dan when I was younger. He said to use it when someone locks their arms together trying to defend against the armlock. His English wasn't very good(he was from Quebec) and I wasn't sure if he meant for street defence or for regular judo. I was under the impression it was ok(despite what I've read on this forum).
It's in a few of the kosen judo movies too. I believe they are on youtube?

I've always hunted for this technique in my judo books to see if it was ok to do.
I've never found it in any of my Japanese judo books. I did find something similar to it in Neil Adam's Masterclass "Armlocks" book. However, it is not the exact same move.
He describes it as "a spring effect on the arms and can be extremely painful and difficult for uke to resist". It is on page 40.

[mrehohl]

In my dojo a few instructors have actually referred to this technique as "the John Anderson special". I've all ways seen it as a setup to distract them into letting you straighten out the arm though.

[Cichorei Kano]

shiran, on Nov 13 2007, 03:43 PM, said:

Hi CK. My neck is feeling slightly better, I tried to message you personally a few times but it didn't go through. As you've said before your inbox is always full.

I was taught that second compression lock (youtube one) by a 7th dan when I was younger. He said to use it when someone locks their arms together trying to defend against the armlock. His English wasn't very good(he was from Quebec) and I wasn't sure if he meant for street defence or for regular judo. I was under the impression it was ok(despite what I've read on this forum).
It's in a few of the kosen judo movies too. I believe they are on youtube?

I've always hunted for this technique in my judo books to see if it was ok to do.
I've never found it in any of my Japanese judo books. I did find something similar to it in Neil Adam's Masterclass "Armlocks" book. However, it is not the exact same move.
He describes it as "a spring effect on the arms and can be extremely painful and difficult for uke to resist". It is on page 40.

Two things. There is a difference between applying an uncomfortable movement to bring a person out of balance, or to release a grip or change his position, or to use that movement in a no-way out situation to force the opponent to abandon. Similarly, if you are on all-fours, I can perfectly grab your head and apply force to it, by pushing it sideways to the shoulder. However, if you are sideways lying on the ground, and I do the same movement, it is illegal. Why ? In the first case, it isn't really a necklock, since you can simply move your body. It is up to you to give in or refuse. In the second case, no matter what you do, you cannot move, therefore making it clearly a necklock.

If such a compression move is used to force you to lose a grib you may have, it isn't really applied as an armlock, but as a movement to get control over your arm, which is them pulled into another movement, namely jûji-gatame. So, you very well have to view the course of things and what is being done with what intent. Clearly, if you see a still picture of the movement, it doesn't tell you at all, if this is truly used as an arm or neck lock or as control or to receive control.

As you point it out "it can be extremely painful and difficult for uke to resist". That doesn't sound as something written for a final armbar or choke intended to achieve a break or to get the opponent unconscious. The comment suggest that it is clearly intended to achieve something different.