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Is This A Kata And If So, What Is It? (answer = Hikomi-no-kata) Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   JudoBJJKid 

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 03:55 AM

I was visiting the various forums to make sure I still remembered my User IDs and Passwords ... and I saw this video in of all places, the BJJ sub-forum of mma.tv.

This looks pretty cool and looks like a kata ... Thoughts?


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#2 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 04:29 AM

View PostJudoBJJKid, on Sep 11 2007, 12:55 PM, said:

I was visiting the various forums to make sure I still remembered my User IDs and Passwords ... and I saw this video in of all places, the BJJ sub-forum of mma.tv.

This looks pretty cool and looks like a kata ... Thoughts?


This is a show exercise developed by a Dutch couple which gave it the grammatically nonsensical term 'hikomi-no-kata' (I kept both the spelling and grammatical mistakes). It is available on both video and in a booklet. They are both very proud of their exercise, and have participated in a discussion here. Like many, they think that from the moment you have a number of techniques and steps and connect these and then add a bowing ceremony to it, that you have a kata. Apart from that, it is a fun practice exercise though.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 11 September 2007 - 04:30 AM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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#3 User is offline   Quantumatics 

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 05:14 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 10 2007, 10:29 PM, said:

This is a show exercise developed by a Dutch couple which gave it the grammatically nonsensical term 'hikomi-no-kata' (I kept both the spelling and grammatical mistakes). It is available on both video and in a booklet. They are both very proud of their exercise, and have participated in a discussion here. Like many, they think that from the moment you have a number of techniques and steps and connect these and then add a bowing ceremony to it, that you have a kata. Apart from that, it is a fun practice exercise though.

I liked it.
Grammatical mistakes aside, the demo appeared very fluid and was apparently well practiced.
Why the negative/dismissive tone CK?
Cheers,
Aaron
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#4 User is offline   stingroyce 

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 10:39 AM

and it has auto-reverse! wow :lol:
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#5 User is offline   Doctor Horrible 

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 10:55 AM

View PostJudoBJJKid, on Sep 11 2007, 03:55 AM, said:

I was visiting the various forums to make sure I still remembered my User IDs and Passwords ... and I saw this video in of all places, the BJJ sub-forum of mma.tv.

This looks pretty cool and looks like a kata ... Thoughts?




You're welcome - and I was only semi trolling with it :hap:
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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#6 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 12:15 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 11 2007, 05:29 AM, said:

This is a show exercise developed by a Dutch couple which gave it the grammatically nonsensical term 'hikomi-no-kata' (I kept both the spelling and grammatical mistakes). It is available on both video and in a booklet. They are both very proud of their exercise, and have participated in a discussion here. Like many, they think that from the moment you have a number of techniques and steps and connect these and then add a bowing ceremony to it, that you have a kata. Apart from that, it is a fun practice exercise though.


I tell you what CKSensei I find this exercise a lot more interesting and beneficial than some of the odd things we see here that ARE called kata.

Despite your correctness in pointing out that a 'kata' is more than ABC. I would call this a kata, in the micro sense of the term, and think it very well performed.

I like it. Its modern seems well performed and is achieving a goal.

Mike
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#7 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 06:27 PM

View PostQuantumatics, on Sep 11 2007, 02:14 PM, said:

I liked it.
Grammatical mistakes aside, the demo appeared very fluid and was apparently well practiced.
Why the negative/dismissive tone CK?
Cheers,
Aaron


I actually was very positive. I do not understand though why the authors did not take their idea and seek the help of an expert to devise a correct title that covers what it is they are doing. While Kan needed an entire group of experts to do so in 1906, or the Kdkan with goshinjutsu in 1956, it is hard to believe that these far less experienced people felt they could do everything just by themselves.

I do not understand what being fluid has to do with it. Most ice skating demonstrations are very fluid. Does that make them judo kata ? I support the idea of the authors though. Reflecting on transitions is good, and the development of a transitions kata in itself is not bad at all. I think if they would take their work in progress to an expert, that with proper guidance it could develop into something useful.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#8 User is offline   Doctor Horrible 

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 06:54 PM

More from the pair -


"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
---H.L. Mencken
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#9 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 08:32 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 11 2007, 07:27 PM, said:

I actually was very positive. I do not understand though why the authors did not take their idea and seek the help of an expert to devise a correct title that covers what it is they are doing. While Kan needed an entire group of experts to do so in 1906, or the Kdkan with goshinjutsu in 1956, it is hard to believe that these far less experienced people felt they could do everything just by themselves.

I do not understand what being fluid has to do with it. Most ice skating demonstrations are very fluid. Does that make them judo kata ? I support the idea of the authors though. Reflecting on transitions is good, and the development of a transitions kata in itself is not bad at all. I think if they would take their work in progress to an expert, that with proper guidance it could develop into something useful.


I rather think God save us from the experts on times. This exercise they are performing is being performed in ernest with a sincere heart for that reason alone it differs from the majority of the kodokan kata that we see here. I take the work as it is and for what it is. There are no rules but respect and harmony with sincerity. I would give this an 7.5/10 and pat both of them on the back.

Now the rest of the forum has got up of the floor......................Now you all know I am not looking for perfection I am looking for respect and sincerity in a kata with some spirit and va va voom. I sincerely liked this 'kata'. I certainly think that those who originated it are deserving of our thanks for working on such an exercise.

I am seeing deeper than the blue gi and back patches. I am seeing into what these judoka are trying to communicate to me and what they are learning about judo.

I wouldnt mind learning this set myself, without the blue gi and back patch but with some other chips on my shoulders!

Mike
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#10 User is offline   heikojr 

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 11:17 PM

MAN! You guys have really got me going on this one! So much so, i actually had to write something!

I really enjoy watching these two! I feel that this "kata" has alot to offer. I would enjoy learning this. I love the way they move with harmony and i feel that they show spirit also.

BUT... What got me to write something is the fact that many of us have citiqued other kata that we watch here, and have talked about how the techniques have got to really be applied. Really do the techniques and don't dance has been expressed so many times on this forum. This looks like a dance to me, and perhaps this is because i am unfamiliar with this kata and i can not see that the techniques are being applied.

I have a Dutch friend, who will have to get me a copy of this!

I am going to read the other thread on this kata.

heikojr
"Human life is truly a short affair. It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like." Yamamoto Tsunetomo
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#11 User is offline   ElvisTorino 

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 12:03 AM

I like this set of techniques. (I don't really care if one calls it kata or not.) What I'd really like to see out of both of these videos is a bit more oomph to the techniques. They're very nicely done and smooth, however it doesn't seem to really have any real attacks.

I do like this though!


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#12 User is offline   JudoBJJKid 

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 05:31 AM

View Postbob_stra, on Sep 11 2007, 03:55 AM, said:

You're welcome - and I was only semi trolling with it :hap:

I do see the influence of Jits, though. Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Since when did you become kbits? *I don't go there as often anymore*

And, most important, if you're a bluename there, click here and please support the JudoInfo site again, next year!

Posted Image
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#13 User is offline   johan smits 

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 06:15 AM

Still I believe CK has a point - I actually believe CK is correct.

Being Dutch and not having a lot to do today explains this post.

We Dutch are (in)famous for inventing a lot, some things worthwhile some things not (rhym is not intentional). This may seem to be a good thing but unfortunately this trait is coupled with the trait of being happy and satisfied with low level achievements.

An example: many years ago I took the exam for shodan jujutsu. This exam consisted of showing self-defence techniques, correct form (physically and mentally) and - believe it or not - demonstration of a kata. Since there were no kata practiced in Dutch jujutsu at that time each participant had to create a kata for him-/herself and demonstate it.
These exercises were developed and performed in earnest with a sincere heart. Alas kata these things were not.

There is a good possiblilty that even very capable budoka (not only judoka) suffer from a lack of basic knowledge - mind you I am not attacking anyone I want to stress that. When you ask me this leaves us with a question at what level can a judoka (or budoka) create and establish a kata? I do not believe that any kata (from whatever system) was ever created by one man or woman, that is just not possible.

Happy landings,

Johan Smits
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#14 User is offline   Doctor Horrible 

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 06:59 AM

View PostJudoBJJKid, on Sep 12 2007, 05:31 AM, said:

I do see the influence of Jits, though. Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Since when did you become kbits? *I don't go there as often anymore*

And, most important, if you're a bluename there, click here and please support the JudoInfo site again, next year!

Posted Image


1-always
2-See the little green 'supporting member' tag in my name.... -_-

from JudoBJJKid: :hap: :hap: :hap:

Hey - edit your own dang posts...you...you...usurper!

This post has been edited by bob_stra: 13 September 2007 - 06:24 AM

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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#15 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 07:13 AM

View PostHanon, on Sep 12 2007, 05:32 AM, said:

I rather think God save us from the experts on times. This exercise they are performing is being performed in ernest with a sincere heart for that reason alone it differs from the majority of the kodokan kata that we see here. I take the work as it is and for what it is. There are no rules but respect and harmony with sincerity. I would give this an 7.5/10 and pat both of them on the back.

Now the rest of the forum has got up of the floor......................Now you all know I am not looking for perfection I am looking for respect and sincerity in a kata with some spirit and va va voom. I sincerely liked this 'kata'. I certainly think that those who originated it are deserving of our thanks for working on such an exercise.

I am seeing deeper than the blue gi and back patches. I am seeing into what these judoka are trying to communicate to me and what they are learning about judo.

I wouldnt mind learning this set myself, without the blue gi and back patch but with some other chips on my shoulders!

Mike


Upon returning from Rio, I shall introduce to the general public my Tanga-no-kata. It is very smooth, and although there are no real attacks I believe in my kata with sincerety and show spirit and va va voom like I have been showing here every day. "Tanga-no-kata" pretty much sounds Japanese, no ? But I can help it a hand and will change it in "Tanuga-no-kata", sounds even more Japanese. To emphasize its smoothness and clarity for the audience I shall practice it while wearing a pink hat and a feather up my rear <_<

Sorry, no offense meant, but since you have time after time emphasized the value of Kan and his system, so I am a bit at loss as to how you see the creation of someone who does neither know nor understand Kan as a worthwhile addition. Moreover, I cannot imagine publishing anything for the general public without at least having two independent knowledgeable experts critique it before publishing it. It lacks self-respect and many other things to be so insolent sort of chutzpah to believe one is so perfect that one feels one does not need scrutiny from either senior people or peers. Someone who shows such a lack of care, I would hardly trust with interpreting, let alone creating judo in kata.

I think too the exercise contains good material that under the proper guidance could grow to something of acceptable level. We all seek to promove, and I would hope its authors do so too.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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