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Kime-no-kata Video Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 09:57 AM

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=g2o-vz4wVF8

What do you think ?
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#2 User is offline   JohnGabriel 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 11:31 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 3 2007, 07:57 PM, said:



Really good! thought the sword bit at the end was not quite a sharp as the rest, but could not say why...

I also really liked the music! anyone know what the piece is?
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#3 User is offline   judo33 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 11:53 AM

I thought it looked rather nice. It seemed to me though(not that I know a flippin thing about what I am talking about) that they seemed to lose something the further along they went. The attacks by uke didn't seem as strong as in the begining or tori's response to them. Techniques's #3 and 4 looked really nice... I thought. But then again, I probably don't know what I'm talking about so just ignore me.
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#4 User is offline   Doctor Horrible 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 02:36 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 3 2007, 09:57 AM, said:



Said the spider to the fly?

You know - I don't know. I liked it - it didn't look stilted. It looks like the other guy actually meant to throw him...

*shrugs*

I use to go to dance recitals / musical theatre with a friend of mine who a professional choreographer. Everything I liked, she hated - not enough this, not enough that, what were they trying to say, their actions weren't embodied etc.

I guess...the less you know, the more you like :hap:

This post has been edited by bob_stra: 03 September 2007 - 02:39 PM

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#5 User is offline   Kaji 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 03:36 PM

I haven't learned Kime-no-kata yet, so readers beware.

From what I could see with my uneducated and untrained eyes, the techniques seem to be somewhat lacking in proper application of Kuzushi. Problem in Tori's Tai-sabaki perhaps?

This post has been edited by Kaji: 03 September 2007 - 03:46 PM

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#6 User is offline   Francois 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 03:53 PM

Hmmmmmmmm..........................we could have done without that music dubbed in, distracts from the kata, I wish the camera angle was better,..........oh the kata itself?.................I'll get back to to you................Kaji, you mentioned a very important here.....................
"The arts of peace and the arts of war are like two wheels of a cart which, lacking one, will have difficulty in standing."�Kuroda Nagamasa (1568-1623)

"In battle, if you you make your opponent flinch, you have already won." --- Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645)
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#7 User is offline   The Guv'nor 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 04:15 PM

I must admit, I thouroughly enjoyed it, Its nice to see Kata demonstrated and the more it gets shown the better,

The more examples we all get to see, the more Kata will be appreciated by many, and then that will enable us all to get a good idea as to what is a good display or not, I think these guys did OK,

As with most Kata nothing exciting happens (unless someone slips up I guess :lol: )
its not a spectator sport after all

But I really did enjoy seeing this, I turned the music down, because it was getting a tad annoying,

I do wonder on a couple of occasions what the Judges could actually see, they were on the blindside to a lot of the armlock applications.

I would dare not critisize the guys in this video, I am not in a position to, thanks for posting CK
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#8 User is offline   judo33 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 05:06 PM

I alway wonder if when CK asks everyone's opinion on this kata or that kata if he isn't just waiting to critique our critique. Critiqueing... just another part of the learning process and probably more difficult than the actual kata itself.
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#9 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 06:09 PM

I'd like to volunteer to embarass myself. (If there is any more embarassing to be done). I must say that I do not qualify my self as 'good enough' on the kata to give an opinion that is worth anything. But since when has that stopped people :lol:

All the movements were there as far as I can tell. The throws were sharp enough. I didn't think the armlocks were that good nor the unbalancing. To me it did not seem that the uke was totally defeated at the end of many of the movements done. Sword handling seemed 'uke does what the choreography requires and tori moves irrespective of uke'

I have seen a couple of local Kime-no-kata performances and have to say I liked them better than this one.

And finally I will need quite a number of years before I can do that kata even as good as the spanish? in the presented video.

We need lots of more videos to be able to make good judgements.
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#10 User is offline   sandanju 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 08:59 PM

My favourite kata .....

Nice work . I wish I could perform it as well as they do ... :-)

But ... Our Belgian guys Dirk De Maertelaere and Christophe Imbrecht ( participants of katatournaments of European and Worldlevel ) perform it with more power , I'd say .....
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#11 User is offline   tis 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 09:03 PM

I have enjoyed watching the performance. I very much advocate a good performance of kata in public - particularly Nage-no-kata, Kime-no-kata and Goshin-jutsu because a good performance always attracts big attention and brings some new people to judo. On the other hand I am not sure whether Kime-no-kata (or any other kata) should be a part of any contest. Kata is very much different from figure-skating, isnt it?
Although I like this video I am afraid that some attacks are not performed with any real intent to harm tori. One could therefore ask whether some of the defenses as performed on this video would work well in a real situation. This doubt is very much linked to my question raised above: should we compete in kata?
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#12 User is offline   budojeff 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 09:18 PM

Hi CK

As you know Im not a fan of dissecting the kata performances of others but in the spirit of critiquing for the sake of hopefully furthering our understanding of the finer points of kata I would offer a few observations of this performance. In that same spirit I'm happy to be corrected on any of the following points.

It does seem to have been rehearsed: Tori and Uke are quite well synchronised in many of their movements. However there does seem to me to be a sense of what I can only call over-precision in parts. It seems as if in order to achieve an asthetic look in certain areas reality has been sacrificed for precision. This presents itself most obviously in Uke's posture. Rarely does he seem to be truly unbalanced. Maybe thats by accident or by design. It is much easier to keep it neat when Uke is not stumbling to regain his posture but the end result is so much less real.

There are several examples of this throughout the kata of which I would mention the following three.

Ke-Age in the Tachi-Ai. Look at how balanced Uke is throughout. In order to take Ukes balance completely Tori just needs to apply a slight forward pull on Ukes captured heel as he opens uke up for his own attack. This can sometimes cause Uke to skip a little to maintain balance. Perhaps that can look ungainly but Id rather see that then zero kuzushi.

Ryote-Dori in the Idori: Tori completely fails to break Uke to the front. In fact Uke is pushed backwards before being kicked and dragged off to have the Waki Gatame applied. All the time uke appears fairly well balanced. If Tori opens Uke up to the front and creates the space for him to fall into then again the result is the natural falling reaction of Uke which Tori can utilise to enhance the power of his kick and direct uke towards the Waki gatame. Much harder to make asthetic but 100% more real.

A similar thing happens in Suri-age in the Idori. If Toris tai-sabaki is correct then Uke will already be unbalanced forwards and Tori just needs to help him on his way. Here Uke is pulled to the floor from a balanced position. Again neat and tidy but just not reality.

I think that perhaps some of the difficulties in the Idori phase stem from the lack of general practice of suwari-waza in Judo. Creating the space for uke to fall into in suwari waza while resisting the temptation to pull or push him to the floor is a difficult skill to learn and one which there's little opportunity to practice in Judo. Some supplemental Aikido practice could I think help a lot in this area.



regards

jeff
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#13 User is offline   Sir Harry Flashman 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 09:28 PM

Of the katas we've reviewed lately, this has been one of the better ones. Uke and tori work reasonably in concert, and the delivery on tori's part is pretty crisp and efficient.

I suppose one could quibble over a few things. Tori's finishes did not seem to be truly breaking uke, most notably on the arm bars. On many of them there seemed to be too long a pause, which took any possible realism out of it. This was all the more apparent when in one knife technique he really nailed uke in an arm lock - perhaps unintentionally - from the get-go. In the chokes, everything was correctly done and correctly placed, but the effect on uke's body was lacking. There was no collapse to uke's posture. Therefore, the techniques were not truly employed.

This raises the key question we always confront in these discussions. We often talk about whether a kata has spirit or not, or whether there is enough apparent kuzushi or cause and effect or realism. I felt that this kata was actually pretty good, in that uke and tori were working 'proportionately' to one another. However, I'd imagine that they could still go further in terms of realism.

The question would be, is that then at the expense of form? I don't think it would be.

This is a step in the right direction from some of the tapes we've seen.
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#14 User is offline   Judoforlife 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 09:30 PM

I enjoyed watching this. I do have one question ... not as a critique but for my own curiosity. The arm lock, the second one which was to Tori's right side ... it didnt really look as though he was applying the technique at all. In the Kata, are the techniques supposed to be "applied" to some degree? Certainly Im not implying to apply the technique to a point of physical pain, but maybe just enough that Uke is tapping for real?

Regards
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#15 User is offline   heikojr 

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 10:01 PM

Dear Cichorei Kano-san,

Thank you!

This was a beautiful kata! Yes, there are still things to work on (hara-gatame), but it was very good! This kata makes me feel nervous for the people that are competing in this kata at the Kodokan in October. If this team took a third, what did the first place team look like?

heikojr

View PostJudoforlife, on Sep 3 2007, 05:30 PM, said:

I enjoyed watching this. I do have one question ... not as a critique but for my own curiosity. The arm lock, the second one which was to Tori's right side ... it didnt really look as though he was applying the technique at all. In the Kata, are the techniques supposed to be "applied" to some degree? Certainly Im not implying to apply the technique to a point of physical pain, but maybe just enough that Uke is tapping for real?

Regards


Yes, the techniques are supposed to be applied! When Uke attacks, it should be real and when tori defends, it should be real!

heikojr
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