Mekugi, on Feb 16 2009, 12:22 AM, said:
I was jumping around the internet and I stumbled on this thread...so I thought I would turn it into a zombie and resurrect it, skewing it off track a bit. Don't worry...I'm not going to bite and turn you into the undead :).
I would like to see the documents you have regarding Sosuishi-ryu and the Kime-no-kata. Very interesting.
I can add this:
When the Sekiryukan was first opened in Fukuoka by Aoyagi Kibei, (quite far away from the Seirensha, Shitama Munetsuna's Dojo) it was purely a Judo-jo (you heard it here first. Of course others will come along now and say they knew this all along...just wait). Mr. Aoyagi re-wrote the syllabus (actually, almost the entirety of the Densho) for the school and he added most of what is now known as the kata of Kodokan Judo. If memory serves me, one of the things he added from the Kodokan was in fact the "Shinken Shobu Kata". Go figure...
This has indeed been an interesting journey. My personal limitation there was that I have no personal practical experience of this school in which you have expertise. Steve Delaney has also raised valid points in suggesting that a number or armlocks seen in Kime-no-kata were nonexistent in Sosuishi-ryu.
What you write is very interesting, and I am grateful for that.
One of the reasons I felt in a difficult position, is that people with expertise in your school, and thus with inside knowledge on the school's techniques, knowledge which I did not have as a practitioner, have shed doubts on the thesis of shobu-no-kata originating in Sosuishi-ryu, when one of the sources of my thesis was in fact an old interview with Shitama.
I think that your suggestion, that the development may be the other way around, indeed is a potential avenue. I was reluctant to openly outline these different opinions.
There is also a different and published interview with Shitama Manzo available on the Internet in which the following appears:
Mr. Rohen:
What did Judo take from Sosuishi-ryu?
Master Shitama:
Kano Sensei felt the need to maintain ties with Koryu Bujutsu. He used Sosuishi-ryu as an old system to illustrate the connection between Judo and Jujutsu. Additionally, Kano Sensei kept some of the Jujutsu kata in Kodokan Judo, for example, the Kime-No-Kata, also known as Shinken-Shobu-No-Kata (combat forms). The Kime-No-Kata is designed to teach fundamentals of attack and defense in actual combat situations, but are banned in randori. They are divided into two main groups: Idori, where the basic position is kneeling and Tachiai, where techniques are executed in a standing position. There are other kata as well.
That interview is preceded by the following statement, and with your insights in this ryu, you may very well be able to more accurately perceive the weight and value:
"Mr. Robert Freitag, Mr. Gary Rohen, and Mr. Joseph DeLuca, of Sosuishi ryu, conducted this interview on November 11, 1995 at the New York Seibukan, Queens, New York. Translating for this interview was Mr. Masayuki Kirimura and Mrs. Yoshie Fleming, wife of the late Sensei Nelson (Mitch) Fleming. This was Shitama Sensei's first visit to the United States" (...).
Ref.:
http://www.nyseibuka...iw/interviw.htm
[I seem to understand that some of these people may no longer be affiliated with the honbu. If so, would this imply that their statements made at the time would be incorrect].
I have not seen the original Japanese of this interview, and the English is open to interpretation. The question is very direct: what did judo take from Sosiuishi-ryu. But the answer, to me is open for interpretation. Instead of saying 'this' and 'that', it reads that Kano
"used Sosuishi-ryu as an old system to illustrate the connection between judo and jujutsu." Illustrate how ? In a lecture ? As a graphic representation ? Or as a kata if indeed shobu-no-kata would directly be taken from Sosuishi-ryu ?
Then the following sentence reads "
Additionally, Kano Sensei kept some of the Jujutsu kata in Kodokan Judo, for example, the Kime-No-Kata, also known as Shinken-Shobu-No-Kata (combat forms)"
I think the word 'kata' there must be understood in singular then as meaning "different movements from different schools". It cannot be resolved from analysis here whether Sosuishi-ryu is among those schools or represents the major school.
Also, it cannot be derived precisely what kime-no-kata one is talking about. The 1906 Butokukai meeting seriously struggled with this kata apparently because of serious disagreements between the Butokukai and the Kodokan. Unlike Nage-no-kata and Katame-no-kata which appeared immediately after as Proceedings, completely with pictures, Kime-no-kata did not appear in print until a quarter century later, and it is said that the disagreements took that long.
Before the meeting, the parent kata only had 13 or 14 techniques, and earlier only 10. There are suggestions that the original 10-form shobu-no-kata was in fact the now still in existence but rarely seen kime-shiki. I do not know if you are familiar with kime-shiki, but I would be interest to hear if any of those kata to you seem closer to Sosuishi-ryu than the current Kime-no-kata.
There is another Internet document (though as usual not referenced) that states that the kata would come from Sosuishi-ryu:
"Le Sosuishi ryu afferma che le 20 technice del Kime no kata del judo sono una selezione delle 68 facenti parte del Sosuishi-ryu no kata." (...)
The documents add that in the 1915 book by Sakujiro Yokoyama a picture appears on which Nagaoka demonstrates with Aoyagi Kibei kataha-jime in Kime-no-kata. The author, Mr. P. Crugnola, adds: "Più tardi, una commissione di esperti (probabilmente quella della foto) portò il numero delle tecniche a 20 e cambiò il nome in Kime no Kata. Una cosa certa é dimostrata dalla foto del libro di Yokoyama del 1915, che ritrae Aoyagi Kibei e Hidekazu Nagaoka impegnati nella dimostrazione di una tecnica di Shime Waza (Kata Ha Jime) e cioé che il rappresentante e 14° successore/caposcuola della Sosuishi Ryu é ormai ben inserito nella realtà del Judo e nella struttura del Kodokan. La Sosuishi Ryu é stata "inglobata" e la sua tecnica é ormai "diluita" (e quindi non più identificabile) in quel "cocktail" moderno che é il Judo di Jigoro Kano." (...)
Ref.:
http://www.jigorokan...ishi%20Ryu.html
Thus, the author states that apparently according to 'Sosuishi-ryu' (it is not said WHO in that ryu was speaking for the ryu) that the techniques by now in the current kime-no-kata would have been 'diluted' so much that they are no longer recognizable as Sosuishi-ryu (his words, not mine). Apparently these statements seem to go back on Shitama Shusaku.
I am evidently curious about your analysis of these statements, both contextually as to their contents.
This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 16 February 2009 - 09:41 AM
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