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#1 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 08:03 PM

Just thought I would start a thread on this. It is one of my favorite and I am fortunate enough to have a teacher that really knows it. In previous discussions we found that though it is derived from Tenshin shinyo ryu, it has been modified (thanks Saitama Steve). What do you guys think of this kata? How many people in the U.S. are practicing it? An interesting question what is the sword draw that uke is attempting on nuki kakae (where you jam his wrist) I have heard a couple of different interpretations including that uke is attempting to roll the sword outward, turning the edge down and then do a rising draw. I asked my koryu teacher about it (who has also done Judo) and his comment was that any swordsman that would wait until someone was that close to draw was an idiot, since the other guy is very likely to nail you in some way before you could get the sword out to cut. So it appears that the maai is artificially close. Could it be that the distance between uke and tori was reduced in the modifications that were made to this kata?
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#2 User is offline   heikojr 

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 08:39 PM

Kime-no-kata is my favorite of all the kata.

I don't think many people practice it here in the States for quite a few reasons. Some being: many people don't practice enough kata, kime-no-kata is not required until high dan grades, people don't like to sit in seiza that long, lack of enough qualified teachers. But all that being said, it is a beautiful kata when it is done correctly!

Has anybody heard a rumor about it being the next kata to be added for contest at the U.S. Nationals?

heikojr
"Human life is truly a short affair. It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like." Yamamoto Tsunetomo
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#3 User is offline   PRAPPY 

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 11:46 AM

I like Kime No Kata also. It is my second favorite after Nage. I accually find that moving and sitting in the seiza position is easier on my knees than the kioshi posture of kateme no kata. We don't have any teachers of this kata in our area but several of us higher ranked black belts are trying to learn it through videos, books and clinics. We use alot of the techniques of this kata in the self-defense aspects of our training, but no one seems to have really studied it as a kata.

I have heard that same rumor of this kata being added possibly for the 2008 or 2009 nationals. Something to look forward to! :manoyes:
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#4 User is offline   Steve Leadbeater 

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 10:33 AM

I have just spent 2 hours with a 6th Dan, 3 x 4th Dans and a 3rd Dan in my first Kime-no-Kata lesson............................

WOW, so much to remember, and one of the 4th Dans asked me to be his Uke for 5th Dan.

This man used to teach me more than 25 years ago !!

I am honoured that he asked, but terrified of the prospect incase I f**k things up badly for him.

Should I accept or politely decline.

I must say that this man is very ill and may never get another chance (terminal illness, I'm led to believe),

C.K. Sensei, Hanon Sensei, PTNippon Sensei please advise me as to the best course of action.
Do unto others BEFORE they DO you !!!

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#5 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 10:58 AM

View PostSteve Leadbeater, on Oct 20 2007, 07:33 PM, said:

I have just spent 2 hours with a 6th Dan, 3 x 4th Dans and a 3rd Dan in my first Kime-no-Kata lesson............................

WOW, so much to remember, and one of the 4th Dans asked me to be his Uke for 5th Dan.

This man used to teach me more than 25 years ago !!

I am honoured that he asked, but terrified of the prospect incase I f**k things up badly for him.

Should I accept or politely decline.

I must say that this man is very ill and may never get another chance (terminal illness, I'm led to believe),

C.K. Sensei, Hanon Sensei, PTNippon Sensei please advise me as to the best course of action.


This is a difficult question. I have to reflect on this before I can answer. Perhaps Hanon-sensei has more wisdom than I at this late hour.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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#6 User is offline   Jonesy 

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 12:37 PM

View PostSteve Leadbeater, on Oct 20 2007, 11:33 AM, said:

I have just spent 2 hours with a 6th Dan, 3 x 4th Dans and a 3rd Dan in my first Kime-no-Kata lesson............................

WOW, so much to remember, and one of the 4th Dans asked me to be his Uke for 5th Dan.

This man used to teach me more than 25 years ago !!

I am honoured that he asked, but terrified of the prospect incase I f**k things up badly for him.

Should I accept or politely decline.

I must say that this man is very ill and may never get another chance (terminal illness, I'm led to believe),

C.K. Sensei, Hanon Sensei, PTNippon Sensei please advise me as to the best course of action.

You are honoured that he asked you.

Put in the hours of practice, learn the kata and do not f***up.

Remember, Argue your limitations and they are yours - Richard Bach.
Dr Llyr C Jones
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#7 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 09:05 PM

View PostSteve Leadbeater, on Oct 20 2007, 11:33 AM, said:

I have just spent 2 hours with a 6th Dan, 3 x 4th Dans and a 3rd Dan in my first Kime-no-Kata lesson............................

WOW, so much to remember, and one of the 4th Dans asked me to be his Uke for 5th Dan.

This man used to teach me more than 25 years ago !!

I am honoured that he asked, but terrified of the prospect incase I f**k things up badly for him.

Should I accept or politely decline.

I must say that this man is very ill and may never get another chance (terminal illness, I'm led to believe),

C.K. Sensei, Hanon Sensei, PTNippon Sensei please advise me as to the best course of action.


I agree 100% with Jonsey. Go for it with all your heart. Bed time reading must be kime no kata. learn the sequence in your head prior to attending claases and always be a few 'read waza' ahead.
You have a very strong spirit, KNK will devlope it and sharpen your tai sabaki. Can only do good for you and your Uke.

You will do him proud. I know these things you know! How long have you got weeks or a month or two?

Turn your fear into a positive, you need fear to maintain the edge on the waza, utilise the fear to your advantage. Breath deep from the hara, dont breath from the top of the chest but low down and use your diaphragm to breath. At home sit in Seiza with toes up and down. Its the toes up part that will cause you the most problems so practice it now.

Keep calm and feel strong. We are here with you and all you have to do is write and I will reply, supporting you with all I have. Make use of us and remember we are there with you all the way. I am proud of you.

Mike......HAJIME.

This post has been edited by Hanon: 20 October 2007 - 09:12 PM

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#8 User is offline   Steve Leadbeater 

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 08:33 AM

Thankyou Hanon Sensei and Jonsey San,

My old coach said he will contact me when he makes his decision as to whether he will test for GoDan in 4 weeks or at the next exam in 6 months,
But after talking to another old Sensei (She is RokuDan) and being told to "Go for it" and do my best for my old Coach, I will take everybodys advice and start "Eating Sleeping and Breathing" Kime-no-kata until I am told by coach Yes or no.

and I WILL do my best for him.
Do unto others BEFORE they DO you !!!

Join the A.B.H.A. (Aussie Badger Hunting Association)

Alas, poor Mongo, I knew him Horatio, the fellow was an infinite pest !!!

Yes, that is Daigo 10th Dan with me in my profile picture.

Mizuno Owners Club Member number 2.
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#9 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 01:34 PM

View PostSteve Leadbeater, on Oct 21 2007, 09:33 AM, said:

Thankyou Hanon Sensei and Jonsey San,

My old coach said he will contact me when he makes his decision as to whether he will test for GoDan in 4 weeks or at the next exam in 6 months,
But after talking to another old Sensei (She is RokuDan) and being told to "Go for it" and do my best for my old Coach, I will take everybodys advice and start "Eating Sleeping and Breathing" Kime-no-kata until I am told by coach Yes or no.

and I WILL do my best for him.


I think this would give us all time to reflect on just how much support you will need. For you it will be a voyage of discovery and learning, There will be difficult times ahead but what you have to do is learn part of a kata. What your uke has to do is prepare to leave us for ever. You have to be strong to support your friend. I know you will rise to the occasion and appreicate that his 'task' is much more frightening than yours.
This is the time Steve to call upon your inner strenghs learned from many years of practicing judo.

As I have written previously, we all here and are behind you at all times. Use us and lean on us as freely as you desire to.

Mike
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#10 User is offline   Kaji 

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 02:54 PM

View PostHanon, on Oct 21 2007, 05:05 AM, said:

Turn your fear into a positive, you need fear to maintain the edge on the waza, utilise the fear to your advantage.

Welcome to the dark side of the Force. :ph34r:

Steve, all the best! I think what is now presented to you is a very precious opportunity and experience.
大智發於心,於心無所尋,成就一切義,無古亦無今。
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#11 User is offline   Steve Leadbeater 

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 11:43 AM

At a tournament today I spoke to my Old Coach regarding next weeks Grading and I was relieved to find that Mr. Robert Ivers (4thDan) has offered to be Uke for My Old Coach.

I was not offended as Mr. Ivers was one of the Australian Kata team at the Kodokan and one of the people who are teaching Kime no Kata to me.

I still intend to complete the Kata Kenshusi next weekend AND attend the Grading Examination to give my Old Coach Moral support, and be there WHEN.....not if.....He is successful.

Knowing that his Uke is of a far superior level than me, makes me feel so much happier, I believe that I could provide the proper standard required for a person to reach GODAN, ....BUT I KNOW that Mr. Ivers WILL provide that service.

I am just going to sit and watch and enjoy seeing my Old Coach getting promoted.

Luv ya Danny...............
Do unto others BEFORE they DO you !!!

Join the A.B.H.A. (Aussie Badger Hunting Association)

Alas, poor Mongo, I knew him Horatio, the fellow was an infinite pest !!!

Yes, that is Daigo 10th Dan with me in my profile picture.

Mizuno Owners Club Member number 2.
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#12 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 12:32 PM

View PostSteve Leadbeater, on Nov 25 2007, 08:43 PM, said:

At a tournament today I spoke to my Old Coach regarding next weeks Grading and I was relieved to find that Mr. Robert Ivers (4thDan) has offered to be Uke for My Old Coach.

I was not offended as Mr. Ivers was one of the Australian Kata team at the Kodokan and one of the people who are teaching Kime no Kata to me.

I still intend to complete the Kata Kenshusi next weekend AND attend the Grading Examination to give my Old Coach Moral support, and be there WHEN.....not if.....He is successful.

Knowing that his Uke is of a far superior level than me, makes me feel so much happier, I believe that I could provide the proper standard required for a person to reach GODAN, ....BUT I KNOW that Mr. Ivers WILL provide that service.

I am just going to sit and watch and enjoy seeing my Old Coach getting promoted.

Luv ya Danny...............


We'll keep our fingers crossed.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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#13 User is offline   Y-Chromosome 

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 12:50 PM

View PostTaigyo, on Jun 19 2006, 03:03 PM, said:

I asked my koryu teacher about it (who has also done Judo) and his comment was that any swordsman that would wait until someone was that close to draw was an idiot, since the other guy is very likely to nail you in some way before you could get the sword out to cut. So it appears that the maai is artificially close. Could it be that the distance between uke and tori was reduced in the modifications that were made to this kata?


My best to the Godan candidate.

In answer to the original question, there are a number of engagements in judo kata where tori faces an armed opponent. It stands to reason that if an armed man faces an an unarmed man and makes no mistakes he is going to win. It seems to me that one of the lessons and principles that can be drawn from this kata is understanding the role of distance in the deployment and employment of weapons and developing a sense of when it is feasible to attempt a disarm.

It is by no means a given, that the opponent in a real life situation is going to be an expert. Nor is it a given that even an expert will never make a mistake.
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#14 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 11:18 PM

View PostY-Chromosome, on Nov 25 2007, 09:50 PM, said:

My best to the Godan candidate.

In answer to the original question, there are a number of engagements in judo kata where tori faces an armed opponent. It stands to reason that if an armed man faces an an unarmed man and makes no mistakes he is going to win. It seems to me that one of the lessons and principles that can be drawn from this kata is understanding the role of distance in the deployment and employment of weapons and developing a sense of when it is feasible to attempt a disarm.

It is by no means a given, that the opponent in a real life situation is going to be an expert. Nor is it a given that even an expert will never make a mistake.


It has never been implied in kime-no-kata that the sword attack is performed by a iaijutsu sensei who holds menkyô-kaiden. As far as I am concerned, the attack comes from someone handling a sword who is by no means proficient in it. I would also hope that a kenjutsu- or iaijutsu-sensei has sufficient knowledge of bushidô that he would not attack an unarmed person with a sword.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#15 User is offline   Dragon 

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 01:35 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Nov 25 2007, 11:18 PM, said:

It has never been implied in kime-no-kata that the sword attack is performed by a iaijutsu sensei who holds menkyô-kaiden. As far as I am concerned, the attack comes from someone handling a sword who is by no means proficient in it. I would also hope that a kenjutsu- or iaijutsu-sensei has sufficient knowledge of bushidô that he would not attack an unarmed person with a sword.


What if they were a peasant with a very attractive daughter? <_<
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